Advanced Tactics Gold VS. TOAW3

[Pariah]

Hey everyone,

I am new here and recently asked for a game recommendation for a newcomer to war games.

I took the suggestion and bought Panzer Corps a few days ago. I am enjoying that game for the most part. There are a few things I do not like. Such as only getting 1 unit per tile, the lack of control of how the units will coordinate multiple unit attacks.

Anyway, I guess I need to get to the point of this post. I am considering buying something a little more advanced and in depth. I have narrowed it down to:

Advanced Tactics Gold
The Operational Art of War 3

Can anyone be so kind to share their thoughts on these or offer any comparison.


Thank you!

[gradenko2k]

Both Advanced Tactics Gold and TOAW3 have unit stacking, multi-hex assaults and better control over advancing into cleared hexes.

ATG is a very "generic" game engine and is meant to represent free-form/fantasy battles, whereas TOAW3 is meant to cover historical operational-level battles.

It depends on how much context you want with your wargaming - TOAW will let you play out virtually any and every battle or campaign from 1900 to yesterday, while ATG will generate endless random battles with made-up nations and terrains.

[Max 86]

I like AT a lot but after awhile it becomes a bit tedious to play as you have to constantly transfer new sub-units into the container unit, division in size or create new divisions. On large maps it gets tiring.

TOAW is a classic that you will not be disappointed in. More historical than AT with loads of scenarios from other users.

If I had to choose I would get TOAW first and wait for AT to go on sale as it is still a fun game to play.

[Ranger33]

I agree with what I Max 86 said. AT starts off really fun and interesting, but then gets tedious as you find yourself spending most of your time transferring units here and there. If they added a feature allowing you to automate most of this process the game would be a must buy.

I've really only scratched the surface of TOAW but it's clearly a masterpiece and has more content available than you could ever play through. One way I found to make getting into the game easier is to let the AI handle most of the units in a battle (I forget which button you press to do this, but it's simple once you figure it out) while you handle just one formation, or whatever you are comfortable with. This also gives you the feeling of being one commander in a bigger battle, which is cool in itself.

[Pariah]

I have heard good about both. I think I am leaning towards TOAW. I would rather have historical battles and campaigns. The idea of rewriting history is a major draw for me to war games. I like the "what if?" factor.

How is the tutorial and learning curve in TOAW? Are there any links you could provide that give some help, insight, or direction to learning the game? Mind you, the only hex style games I have played are Civ 5, Panzer Corps, Greed Corp, and Battle Worlds Kronos (this game is a MUST have if you like Panzer Corps and do not mind a futuristic fantasy setting). So, I am still pretty much a greenhorn all around. I know nothing of military tactics, structure, etc.

I can learn pretty much anything I put my mind to and have a desire to play games like this. I am bored with games like Empire Total War, Age of Empires 3, Rise of Nations, etc.

I am open to any other recommendations you guys may have. I have budgeted myself a few hundred bucks to buy some games that will occupy me for a while. So, replay value is a must and I eventually would like to get into some online multiplayer battles.

Thanks again everyone. I am happy to have found this place.

[Trugrit]

I would recommend you consider War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.

In my opinion it is the best grand strategy war game ever made.

[Pariah]

I was looking at that one. I hear (from a youtube channel) that it is pretty hard to learn and not many play it. I do not mind the hard to learn part as long as it is worth it.

I am looking to eventually play human vs. human online. Is there a decent dedicated community that plays on a regular basis?

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

I would recommend you consider War in the Pacific Admirals Edition.

In my opinion it is the best grand strategy war game ever made.

I agree that WITP:AE is "the best grand strategy war game ever made", but I don't think it's at all the best game for a war gaming novice.

Lots of recommendations. I have my own. But, yes, I think that TOAW is a very good choice.

[Trugrit]

Yes it is hard to learn but worth it. It is a hardcore game but once you learn it is all gold.

I've been playing for three years and it never gets old. I've logged hundreds of hours.

The technical support is outstanding. The community forum is not only helpful but is a must for learning the game.

It's a play by E-mail or against the computer AI.

You will also need some basic computer skills.

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Pariah

I was looking at that one. I hear (from a youtube channel) that it is pretty hard to learn and not many play it. I do not mind the hard to learn part as long as it is worth it.

Hard to learn? Yes. Not many play it? No. The WITP:AE player community is among the most active. Look at all the many AARs! ([X(]) Worth it? Very much so. But there is so much game there that it could crowd out everything else. If WWII Pacific is Your Thing, go for it! Otherwise, consider something simpler, and less intense.

I am looking to eventually play human vs. human online. Is there a decent dedicated community that plays on a regular basis?

WITP:AE is PBEM (and solo play vs. the AI), not real-time human vs. human online.

[Pariah]

I am curious as to what your recommendations are.

[Jafele]

Both games are pretty good. It depends on what you want.

TOAW III: Not easy to learn but you can enjoy playing against the AI. Historical. IMO TOAW works better in small scenarios. Loads of scenarios availables in both the game and internet. It looks TOAW III is in process of updating.

ATG: Easy to learn; Quick battles using random maps (a very rare feature in pc games)made with a few clicks that brings infinite replayability for MP games. On another hand the AI is really poor, you´ll get tired of single player games soon. Less realistic than TOAW.

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Pariah

I am curious as to what your recommendations are.

My recommendations are maybe to decide first:

[*]What era or conflict are you interested in? (For me, that is the most important consideration. I like American Civil War and WWII Pacific most of all, but that's just me.)
[*]What level? Strategic? Operational? Grand tactical? Tactical? (I most prefer operational, but that's just me.)
[*]Land? Naval? Air? Combined Arms? (I prefer land, or combined arms.)
[*]Turn based? UGO/IGO? WEGO? (So-called) Real-Time? (WEGO is great, otherwise turn based.)
[*]Simple? Complex? (I tend to like complex.)
[*]Graphics are: Ugly? Acceptable? Gorgeous? (I won't play ugly.)
[*]Something you can play in one evening? In a weekend? In a month or two? Years (in the case of a WITP:AE Grand Campaign)? (It depends on my mood.)
[*]Net play? PBEM? Solo? If the last, how good is the AI? (I prefer solo play. Will play hot-seat solitaire if the AI is too weak, and if I otherwise like the game well enough.)
[*]Etc., etc.

Unless none of the above applies, and you are just looking for the best generic gaming experience. In that case, I couldn't say.

Still, I think that TOAW is an all-around very good choice. (Or see my sig. [;)])

[76mm]

TOAW has a lot of great features but in my opinion the interface is, uh, suboptimal. I'm not really into fancy graphics but TOAW really pushes the bottom end.

You might want to check out some oldies but goodies:
--winSPWWII--the current version of the venerable Steel Panthers game. Individual squad/vehicle scale. I've just picked this one up and am enjoying it. It is seriously old school (kinda crappy graphics) but generally fun.

--one of the many Panzer Campaigns games or perhaps the Panzer Battles game (re Kursk). The campaign games in Panzer Campaigns are MASSIVE but the smaller scenarios might be OK for a beginner. I generally like the system, and Panzer Campaigns has a free demo game (Mius), so you can check it out and find out if you like the system. One thing I like about this system is that it doesn't have the usual "attack/defend" factors--you have a count of the men/vehicles in the unit, morale, quality, etc. and you need to figure out what the units are capable of (or not).

[Pariah]

[*]What era or conflict are you interested in? (For me, that is the most important consideration. I like American Civil War and WWII Pacific most of all, but that's just me.)

Anything WW2 or later

[*]What level? Strategic? Operational? Grand tactical? Tactical? (I most prefer operational, but that's just me.)

I really do now know what these mean in a military/war game definition??

[*]Land? Naval? Air? Combined Arms? (I prefer land, or combined arms.)

same as you... land and combined arms with a preference for the latter.

[*]Turn based? UGO/IGO? WEGO? (So-called) Real-Time? (WEGO is great, otherwise turn based.)

I honestly do not know what those acronyms mean. But, I can tell you I do NOT like pause-able real time (Hearts of Iron 3, Darkest Hour, Airborne Assault:Conquest of the Aegean, etc)

[*]Simple? Complex? (I tend to like complex.)

Complex. (I just got Panzer Corps and it is a bit too simple...I see it getting dull very quickly)

[*]Graphics are: Ugly? Acceptable? Gorgeous? (I won't play ugly.)

This does not really matter. I do not want anything that looks like it was made for Windows 95. More than 256 colors, the text should be clear and images sharp.

[*]Something you can play in one evening? In a weekend? In a month or two? Years (in the case of a WITP:AE Grand Campaign)? (It depends on my mood.)

If I am playing solo, I would prefer very long term. If it where mutiplayer, A day to a week at the most. (unless I could find a dedicated PBEM group)

[*]Net play? PBEM? Solo? If the last, how good is the AI? (I prefer solo play. Will play hot-seat solitaire if the AI is too weak, and if I otherwise like the game well enough.)

Mostly solo. But, with an desire to go multi-player once I am comfortable. ( I know how frustrating it can be to play against noobs.)

[berto]

TOAW's naval game is weak, but a new version is in the works that should improve that.

WITP:AE does have scenarios, so you do have briefer options other than playing -- possibly for years [X(] -- the Grand Campaign. The learning curve is very steep. But if you manage to climb it, heckuva game!

Maybe you should visit the various game fora and browse through the AARs? That will tell you lots.

WWII is not really My Thing though (aside from WWII Pacific), so I am not the one to advise you in your choice of WWII games.

Wherever you choose to spend your time and money, have fun!

[Max 86]

Strategic means wide in scope with map showing many countries. Each unit is a division, corps or army. You plan the actions of entire armies, tech research, economy stuff.

Operational means one campaign within one area. The Allied invasion if Italy is a good example as it all happens inside Italy and you receive historical reinforcements as opposed to 'buying' the units you want. Usually units are battalion-regiment-brigade sized and belong to a higher org (their parent division / corps). TOAW has excellent scenario for this.

Tactical means small unit actions, usually company level or smaller, with ranged fire for small arms across several hexes, large artillery is off-board and you call in strikes per radio contact rules. Will have mortar squads, MG squads, rifle squads, etc. (or companies, depending on game scale). LOS is important, taking cover in buildings, behind walls and hedge rows, etc. is critical (think squad leader).

UGO is typical where you play a turn then the computer plays a turn. WEGO is where you plot your moves and actions, the other side plots their moves and then you hit end turn and the turn plays out simultaneously in a more dynamic fashion as opposed to UGO.

[MrsWargamer]

Just so you have an opinion of one who owns them, but isn't a mindless fan drone, think of War in the Pacific and War in the East and World in Flames as if your swimming instructor just booted you into the deep end of the pool wearing arctic winter kit including boots and gloves and actually expecting you to tread water like that for 30 minutes.

Get the picture well enough
Plus they are the most expensive titles on sale here too.

I like both AT and TOAW3.

But I think you sound like a TOAW3 player. And this game has a community that has been making fan made stuff for it for more than a decade. It's one of those types of games where you may well end up never really needing much of any other computer wargames ever again.

Some wargamers actually do indeed not play anything else other than a fixed selection of titles.
Most WitP players for instance think the world revolves around it. Then there are the Steel Panthers players that basically play nothing else.

So you need to be wary of 'suggestions' that that are more fan shill than anything else

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Pariah

I have narrowed it down to:

Advanced Tactics Gold
The Operational Art of War 3

While you are making your mind up, pick up Combat Command currently on sale. One of the 'hidden gems' here, I think you'll find it suits pretty well.

[Rosseau]

Funny, most of the grognards here would laugh at Battle Worlds Kronos, but it requires more skill and thought than Panzer Corp, imo. TOAW3 is a sizable jump up in complexity and jump down in UI friendliness.

I'd say unless you're going to use its powerful editor, AT Gold might not excite compared to Kronos, where one false move could blow your whole game. As Herston says, Combat Command is well worth it due to the sale, but eventually you'll want more. Flashpoint Red Storm you can play out of the box, but it's pricier. SSG's games (Kharkov) are classics, but they really are overpriced for their age. It's a tough choice.