AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Extended Release)

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

About fifty years into an extreme game with 15 races, 1400 stars on bigest map, chaotic, weak pirates etc. Icemania, bro/possible sis, I love you... and hate you. You've utterly ruined the game for me playing any other way. Now I'll need to incorporate this into everything or the game will be unplayable. Your mod improves the game so much, it's unreal!

I have run into some problems however, which I'll post later after I've looked into them a bit more. Hopefully they're not related to your mod.

Again, stellar work, keep it up.

It's Bro and thanks ParagonExile. You have to tell me more ...

Unfortunately crashes as reported in TechSupport have put a complete stop on my testing (even rolling back to 1.9.5.5 and reinstalling) so I haven't been able to go that late in the game yet.

My Modding Pencil is ready, this is the whole reason to have an Alpha, what did you find and what can I do to fix it?

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
It's Bro and thanks ParagonExile. You have to tell me more ...

Unfortunately crashes as reported in TechSupport have put a complete stop on my testing (even rolling back to 1.9.5.5 and reinstalling) so I haven't been able to go that late in the game yet.

My Modding Pencil is ready, this is the whole reason to have an Alpha, what did you find and what can I do to fix it?

Like I said, I don't know if these are related to your changes, but the following occurred:

1. The Atuuk and Boskara never found warp drive and never expanded out of their home system, even though they had several exploration ships and the correct ruins in their home system. I had to manually give them the tech with the editor.

2. Some of the AI's didn't have civilian ships a year into the game, just a space port.

3. Some Gizurean ships refused to fight with my own ships, even though we were at war and they had weapons. They pretty much sat there and let my guys butcher them. This was just for one battle though.

4. Other small things I forget. I'll play another game soon and make explicit notes

[DeadlyShoe]

introducing gravwell tech earlier helps limit the impact of troop rushes

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

ORIGINAL: Icemania
It's Bro and thanks ParagonExile. You have to tell me more ...

Unfortunately crashes as reported in TechSupport have put a complete stop on my testing (even rolling back to 1.9.5.5 and reinstalling) so I haven't been able to go that late in the game yet.

My Modding Pencil is ready, this is the whole reason to have an Alpha, what did you find and what can I do to fix it?

Like I said, I don't know if these are related to your changes, but the following occurred:

1. The Atuuk and Boskara never found warp drive and never expanded out of their home system, even though they had several exploration ships and the correct ruins in their home system. I had to manually give them the tech with the editor.

2. Some of the AI's didn't have civilian ships a year into the game, just a space port.

3. Some Gizurean ships refused to fight with my own ships, even though we were at war and they had weapons. They pretty much sat there and let my guys butcher them. This was just for one battle though.

4. Other small things I forget. I'll play another game soon and make explicit notes

What I really want to know first is ... did you at least find it more difficult? How did you go with Wonders? Did you win in the end? Did you have any "oh no" moments?

On 1, some more info would help. In a couple of test games I checked every race and the latest was much earlier than default. I've checked the Research Orders and they appear fine.

On 2, what research setting were you using? Size 230 construction is required as the game doesn't shrink them. I hate those pathetically slow default Mining Ships with just 1 Mining Engine etc. This is in my Developer Support Wishlist in the OP. Or was it a different issue?

On 3, sounds like a bug I can't fix.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe
introducing gravwell tech earlier helps limit the impact of troop rushes

Not really. I just send my Transports all peaceful, setup my Troop Transports in a circle, and then invade so they all land troops at essentially the same time.

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
What I really want to know first is ... did you at least find it more difficult? How did you go with Wonders? Did you win in the end? Did you have any "oh no" moments?

Much more difficult, not quite as hard as I would've wished for extreme. I want extreme to be near-impossible for all intents and purposes.

Wonders were spread out, much better than before with just me getting them.

I always win in 4X games.

The Shakturi blew up one of my planets before I could stop them. Their attack was sudden and staggering; I think there were a thousand ships or so attacking me, and the ships stood up to my custom designs MUCH better. I actually needed to retreat and plan, rather than rush in and smash them like always. I've never had that happen before!

On 1, some more info would help. In a couple of test games I checked every race and the latest was much earlier than default. I've checked the Research Orders and they appear fine.

There's really nothing more to say; they just sat there mining stuff and developing their home systems. They weren't primitive, they just had no warp drives. I don't know what else to tell you.

On 2, what research setting were you using? Size 230 construction is required as the game doesn't shrink them. I hate those pathetically slow Mining Ships with just 1 Mining Engine. This is in my Developer Support Wishlist. Or was it a different issue?

Ahhhhh, I was at I think 240 research costs. A problem I assume?

On 3, sounds like a bug I can't fix.

u wot m8?

u havin' a giggle?

Fite me 1 v 1.

[Icemania]

LOL, yes I'm enjoying the fact others are having fun with this as well.

I had a similar experience on Extreme ... it's still always a win but a lot more fun. I was going to play with the other races a bit more advanced as well, which used to be a cakewalk as well, but it might not be so easy now. I'm at the limit for what I can do with the current Modding capabilities.

Yes as I mentioned in the mod intro text in-game, Expensive Research or above is not recommended. It causes a delay to Civilian Ship builds as the game does not shrink them. There is only so much you can fit into Size 160! If push comes to shove I'll make them pathetic again for release but I would prefer Developer Support (noting again that Developer Support to open Research Build Orders is what made this Mod possible in the first place).

Any screenshots? That Shakturi invasion in particular? Did any other Races use Death Rays or Super Weapons?

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

LOL, yes I'm enjoying the fact others are having fun with this as well.

I had a similar experience on Extreme ... it's still always a win but a lot more fun. I was going to play with the other races a bit more advanced as well, which used to be a cakewalk as well, but it might not be so easy now. I'm at the limit for what I can do with the current Modding capabilities.

Yes as I mentioned in the mod intro text in-game, Expensive Research or above is not recommended. It causes a delay to Civilian Ship builds as the game does not shrink them. There is only so much you can fit into Size 160! If push comes to shove I'll make them pathetic again for release but I would prefer Developer Support (noting again that Developer Support to open Research Build Orders is what made this Mod possible in the first place).

Any screenshots? That Shakturi invasion in particular? Did any other Races use Death Rays or Super Weapons?

...

I may or may not have taken any screen shots...

...

[:(]

But no other races used super lasers.

I'll also take the five seconds needed to read warnings in the future :3 I'll play another game and be more mindful of screencaps and such. I'll also take some more notes. But first imma' have to mod the base game alllllllllll over again, oh boy.

[Icemania]

This was one test I wanted to make but can't with these crashes at the moment ... how long does it take for other races to use Death Rays and Super Lasers (Insect races only). A number of races will research Death Rays and the Insect Races will also research Super Lasers. Death Rays are in the Capital Ship and Large Spaceport Design Templates. World Destroyers are also enabled for Insect races in the Policy files.

One other comment with the Shakturi, were they using the Shaktur Firestorm? If the Developer could allow us to mod their Ship Tactics, to use Point Blank rather than All Weapons, it would make them far more lethal again. Test it and you'll see what I mean, the DPS difference is massive.

[ParagonExile]

Problem found. What are you Icemania? A casual?

Find what is wrong with these pictures (Pardon the potato quality):



In my opinion, the "consolidation" techs (Meridian shields, hyperfusion reactors etc) should be violently murdered and buried in a shallow grave. They kill variety and make the game both visually boring and predictable. I would suggest following Locarnus' example and removing these technologies, extending the abilities of its predecessors to fill the niche, or weakening them and placing them alongside their former prerequisite as another "specialization" path.

For example;

For reactors, the root tech would be "space reactors", that would be directly upgraded to "fission reactors", which in turn would have two techs which improve its efficiency. Following that, it would branch off to "Fusion reactors" as the efficiency option, "Hyperfusion reactors" which would be raw power option, and "Quantum reactors" as a middle ground. In this example, you could also set another gas, maybe Tyderios, to be a fuel for Hyperfusion reactors so you could diversify your fuel sources and use different reactors for different ship types. Civilian ships would use fusion, non-combat state ships would use quantum reactors, and combat ships would use hyperfusion. I think this could be very interesting and improve the game in a tangible way.

What do you think about this idea?

[Sithuk]

@Paragon: An interesting concept. Could you expand on how you believe the change would improve the AI?

I can see that splitting the consolidation tech allows beelining which could help the AI if its research order was set appropriately to get to higher tech reactors more quickly, at the hit of missing out on the lower tech alternative reactor paths.

Do you envisage that different races would follow different reactor paths? Or that the effect would be limited to specifying a single reactor type to the civilian / military / state non-combat ship design templates. How does specifying a single reactor type to a single ship class help the AI? Are you thinking that it would help with the issues the AI sometimes has with fuel scarcity?

[Blackstork]

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

@Paragon: An interesting concept. Could you expand on how you believe the change would improve the AI?

I can see that splitting the consolidation tech allows beelining which could help the AI if its research order was set appropriately to get to higher tech reactors more quickly, at the hit of missing out on the lower tech alternative reactor paths.

Do you envisage that different races would follow different reactor paths? Or that the effect would be limited to specifying a single reactor type to the civilian / military / state non-combat ship design templates. How does specifying a single reactor type to a single ship class help the AI? Are you thinking that it would help with the issues the AI sometimes has with fuel scarcity?

The best outcome from all this that different races, each one with OWN viable, competitive approach on combat will have wide selection of reactors/drives to select in order to tune their designs towards prefered combat style. This will require alot of testing, tuning though. But, this is another additional factor of fun and sucess which will add alot of variety, replayability, and importance of player choice of techs/modules for certain race.

In Beyound Mod (mod in wip from nearby thread loaded with extended, immersion, custom libraries of pre-made characters, alots of art, 10 new races and tons of new features, which will probably incorporate this mod and research mod) there is some race which are amoeba-like creature who have special gas mining stuff, engeneering size bonuses. They have lower size gas miners, bigger ships, and overal best gas collection in the game. They will no problems with refueling, they should use hi fuel usage powerful reactor/engines. Their setups should differ from tiny militaristic race with small fast ships, which will go towards space conserving, efficiency/fuel/energy conserving focused setups. I will praise those "racial selections", because they add more variety to gameplay tactics, strategies and approaches.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
@Paragon: An interesting concept. Could you expand on how you believe the change would improve the AI?

Spot on. The scope of this mod is AI Improvement. And unless a case can be made for why this will help the AI it should be considered as part of a mega mod project.

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
@Paragon: An interesting concept. Could you expand on how you believe the change would improve the AI?

Spot on. The scope of this mod is AI Improvement. And unless a case can be made for why this will help the AI it should be considered as part of a mega mod project.

You intend to port this to the Extended Universe mod correct?

Because in that case, you'll have many more species to make distinct and competitive at the same time, but the tech tree as-is will force homogenization the further down it you go. By expanding out the tech tree and making technology (usually) sidegrades, you'll be able to have multiple races taking different approaches at the same thing.

Instead of having, say, five races who use beams all ultimately using Titans to reamin competitive, you'll have one using Phasors, one using Maxos', one using Shatterforces, one using adjusted Titans... etc. It's just more interesting, both mechanically and visually (in my opinion).

Take that for what you will.

[Icemania]

Sounds great! But to repeat my scope is AI Improvement. For Extended I'll use the weapons it already has, do some more weapons balance testing and make tweaks a required. In Vanilla, instead of having more than half the races using Titan Beams and more than half using Torpedoes, my Mod uses a mix of existing weapons, and I'll do the same for Extended. That alone will requires a lot of work.

If there is a team effort to deliver an expanded Tech Tree, I'll help that team by applying all the AI Improvement Ideas to whatever is developed, once it's mature.

[ParagonExile]

That's great to hear Icemania, thank you!

[Blackstork]

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
@Paragon: An interesting concept. Could you expand on how you believe the change would improve the AI?

Spot on. The scope of this mod is AI Improvement. And unless a case can be made for why this will help the AI it should be considered as part of a mega mod project.

You intend to port this to the Extended Universe mod correct?

Because in that case, you'll have many more species to make distinct and competitive at the same time, but the tech tree as-is will force homogenization the further down it you go. By expanding out the tech tree and making technology (usually) sidegrades, you'll be able to have multiple races taking different approaches at the same thing.

Instead of having, say, five races who use beams all ultimately using Titans to reamin competitive, you'll have one using Phasors, one using Maxos', one using Shatterforces, one using adjusted Titans... etc. It's just more interesting, both mechanically and visually (in my opinion).

Take that for what you will.

100% agree

Also about megamod, there 3 major things going now: AI mod, Research mod (which could incorporate and already does - as last samples from lurchi weapon sidegrade system) , and Beyond mod (our mod which is packed with ambitios flavor/immersion/variety extensions like races including unique mechanics, totally new and very deep custom pre-set character system with unique arts for each one, racial languages and distinct ship and character naming.)
All those incorporated could be a megamod we talking about. Lets just help /test to one to other, build towards compatibility and main goal of integration.

[Icemania]

Get in touch with lurci and Unforeseen and make it happen. Whatever you come up with, so long as it's an integrated team effort, I'll come along at the end and apply the AI Improvement Mod to it.

[Icemania]

Since I can't test has anybody got any bugs or feedback that I can work on? The way things are going this may not need a Beta. The wishlist from Elliot is longer than my own list now.

If anybody sees a race failing to research Prewarp, as reported by ParagonExile, can you send me a link to a save game, so I can check it out in more detail?

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Since I can't test has anybody got any bugs or feedback that I can work on? The way things are going this may not need a Beta. The wishlist from Elliot is longer than my own list now.

If anybody sees a race failing to research Prewarp, as reported by ParagonExile, can you send me a link to a save game, so I can check it out in more detail?

I started a new game, but "unfortunately" everything is working well.

Icemania, I'm so disappointed in you, I expected more bugs.