IJN subs
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
IJN subs
These seem to be given superpowers in this game. Either that or Allied ASW capabilities have been totally nerfed in another sop to those who cry when real life/history intrudes on their fantasies of conquest.
IRL they were slow to dive and not especially maneuverable underwater. IRL they were employed poorly but I consider their employment to be a player-decided issue so that is irrelevant.
In this game one typically finds IJN subs sitting 2 hexes away from Allied airbase conducting their own air operations under an umbrella of Allied ASW aircraft patrols. Even with ASW experience in the 60s the ASW a/c only occasionally attack the submarines even though repeated sightings in the same hex have resulted in 6-9 planes covering that one hex with ASW patrols.
IRL the IJN lost about 120 submarines to Allied ASW. IRL the majority of those sunken subs were sunk by Allied surface units. This is admittedly different to the losses of German Uboats in the Atlantic where more subs were sunk by a/c than by surface units BUT:
1) Uboats quickly learned that they could not operate effectively in areas patrolled by Allied ASW a/c. Their successes came mostly in the "Air Gap" and as that gap got smaller and smaller with increasing patrols by longer range aircraft the Uboats successes became fewer and fewer.)
2) The Pacific did not offer the same sort of chokepoints between IJN bases and operational areas. The Pacific is also a good deal larger than the Atlantic.
3) The employment of IJN subs put them in areas far from Allied bases (trying to attack warships or trying to supply isolated garrisons). According to Combinedfleet.com subs that
were sent against shipping off the U.S. west coast often reported "no sightings" over the course of a patrol (not exactly overly aggressive).
The fact that air patrols did not suppress IJN subs in the same way that air patrols suppressed the UBoats was not due to any superior characteristics of IJN submarines. In fact those IJN subs were markedly inferior in the characteristics of diving time and maneuverability to the Type VII or Type IX Uboat.
IJN subs should be able just as subject to suppression and loss to ASW air patrols as their German allies turned out to be.
IRL they were slow to dive and not especially maneuverable underwater. IRL they were employed poorly but I consider their employment to be a player-decided issue so that is irrelevant.
In this game one typically finds IJN subs sitting 2 hexes away from Allied airbase conducting their own air operations under an umbrella of Allied ASW aircraft patrols. Even with ASW experience in the 60s the ASW a/c only occasionally attack the submarines even though repeated sightings in the same hex have resulted in 6-9 planes covering that one hex with ASW patrols.
IRL the IJN lost about 120 submarines to Allied ASW. IRL the majority of those sunken subs were sunk by Allied surface units. This is admittedly different to the losses of German Uboats in the Atlantic where more subs were sunk by a/c than by surface units BUT:
1) Uboats quickly learned that they could not operate effectively in areas patrolled by Allied ASW a/c. Their successes came mostly in the "Air Gap" and as that gap got smaller and smaller with increasing patrols by longer range aircraft the Uboats successes became fewer and fewer.)
2) The Pacific did not offer the same sort of chokepoints between IJN bases and operational areas. The Pacific is also a good deal larger than the Atlantic.
3) The employment of IJN subs put them in areas far from Allied bases (trying to attack warships or trying to supply isolated garrisons). According to Combinedfleet.com subs that
were sent against shipping off the U.S. west coast often reported "no sightings" over the course of a patrol (not exactly overly aggressive).
The fact that air patrols did not suppress IJN subs in the same way that air patrols suppressed the UBoats was not due to any superior characteristics of IJN submarines. In fact those IJN subs were markedly inferior in the characteristics of diving time and maneuverability to the Type VII or Type IX Uboat.
IJN subs should be able just as subject to suppression and loss to ASW air patrols as their German allies turned out to be.
RE: IJN subs
Actually I don't remember particular instances (they scored on a couple of worthwhile targets but that's not the point: only in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor were conditions conducive to operating near Allied airbases. However in this game multiple IJN subs parked themselves 2 hexes away (or less) from Pearl Harbor, Brisbane, Sydney, Colombo, Suva, Noumea and remained in the same hex for weeks (not necessarily all at the same time). They were located turn after turn by ASW aircraft but were seldom attacked by them. Several of them conducted Glen search/recon operations (given its max speed the search radius of a Glen should be 1 hex) while the ASW apparently a/c circled overhead.
- pontiouspilot
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:09 pm
RE: IJN subs
IJN subs could have and should have been a much more deadly force than they were. They learned virtually nothing from their German allies. Their deficits were much more doctrinal than material based. I would hazard a guess that if Donitz operated the IJN sub fleet the Pacific war would have lasted an extra year.
On this topic, is their a scenario which adjusts their sub arm to German efficiency?
On this topic, is their a scenario which adjusts their sub arm to German efficiency?
RE: IJN subs
Hey spence, slow your roll dude its just a game.[:D] Ok, sorry not trying to tweak ya guy. Just a few things. One the Atlantic is a puddle compared to the Pacific so you'll never get the same air coverage. IIRC German boats dove a lot faster than US boats also. German boats tended to be smaller, not sure if that's the reason for the better dive.
There may be many reasons for lack of success. You didn't give too many details. From what I've read here Japans' under water sailors are fish bait by late '42. Don't know if that's true as I haven't gotten too far into the game yet and I'm playing the AI. So may I suggest a search for sub-op threads to see if an adjustment in tactics is called for.[:'(]
Again not trying to tweak ya. Just having a little fun, I too have been frustrated with the game. Its normally me though that's borked.
There may be many reasons for lack of success. You didn't give too many details. From what I've read here Japans' under water sailors are fish bait by late '42. Don't know if that's true as I haven't gotten too far into the game yet and I'm playing the AI. So may I suggest a search for sub-op threads to see if an adjustment in tactics is called for.[:'(]
Again not trying to tweak ya. Just having a little fun, I too have been frustrated with the game. Its normally me though that's borked.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
RE: IJN subs
ORIGINAL: spence
Actually I don't remember particular instances (they scored on a couple of worthwhile targets but that's not the point: only in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor were conditions conducive to operating near Allied airbases. However in this game multiple IJN subs parked themselves 2 hexes away (or less) from Pearl Harbor, Brisbane, Sydney, Colombo, Suva, Noumea and remained in the same hex for weeks (not necessarily all at the same time). They were located turn after turn by ASW aircraft but were seldom attacked by them. Several of them conducted Glen search/recon operations (given its max speed the search radius of a Glen should be 1 hex) while the ASW apparently a/c circled overhead.
Are you sure its the same sub 'parked' there or are they moving in and out.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
- pontiouspilot
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:09 pm
RE: IJN subs
The IJN subs not that good...didn't you watch old Belushi/Ackroyd movie "1941"??!!...and that was with German advisor
RE: IJN subs
Or that other movie when the Germans invaded Pearl Harbor.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
RE: IJN subs
I'm in July '42 as the Japanese and all my subs do is attract Depth charges.
RE: IJN subs
Yeah, except for the first six months of the war, I have never had any trouble dealing with Japanese subs. That does not mean that they did not pull of some major kills but by 10/43 most all were sunk in my last campaign.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: IJN subs
Maybe it is not the sub so much as the superiority of the Long Lance torpedo which IIRC was better than anything the Allies had (range and explosive head) throughout the war.
The Commander's job is to orchestrate and direct the three major dimensions of combat - space, time and force. Shattered Sword, the Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
RE: IJN subs
your complaints are a bit too much, ev'ryone knows that airASW doesn't deliver kills, & 3/4 of reported airASW hits vs. enemy subs are FoW/bogus.
airASW is great for Detection, & a high DL reduces an enemy SS TF's ability to engage a target, esp. if your convoy is passing thru its hex.
but if you want to damage/kill an enemy SS lurker, you've got to send a competent 3-4 ship ASW TF to patrol thru its hex, & engage it in combat.
airASW that raises the DL on an enemy sub will be a big help, but can't deliver the hits to drive it back to base.
airASW is great for Detection, & a high DL reduces an enemy SS TF's ability to engage a target, esp. if your convoy is passing thru its hex.
but if you want to damage/kill an enemy SS lurker, you've got to send a competent 3-4 ship ASW TF to patrol thru its hex, & engage it in combat.
airASW that raises the DL on an enemy sub will be a big help, but can't deliver the hits to drive it back to base.
RE: IJN subs
but if you want to damage/kill an enemy SS lurker, you've got to send a competent 3-4 ship ASW TF to patrol thru its hex, & engage it in combat.
That was not the German experience. Because they sailed a narrower sea with significant choke-points astride the transit zones to/from their patrol zones, they found that air patrols were the nemesis of their efforts: both because they were nearly immobilized when operating underwater AND because of increased losses. Once the Allies "filled in" the Greenland Air Gap with air patrols the UBoats had lost their war.
German UBoats could dive faster and maneuver better underwater than Japanese I-boats. They also could dive much deeper than Japanese I-boats (as evidenced by the IJN doctrinal ASW assumption that US submarines were similarly limited in diving ability). In this game one finds IJN boats surfacing, assembling their a/c, launching and recovering it twice during the course of the (game) day in hexes patrolled by several enemy aircraft.
(Comparisions of Type VIIs etc with US submarines however, are completely irrelevant since I am only complaining about a game mechanic that allows unrealistic employment of IJN boats. Only the Japanese can alter their (very poor) ASW performance and will of course do so long before US submarines are armed with torpedoes that work. By that time IJ air ASW does a decent job suppressing Allied subs.)
RE: IJN subs
So you think Japanese air ASW can suppress Allied subs but Allied air ASW not Japanese subs? Not exactly true in the game. Comparison between Kriegsmarine and USN submarines is IMHO not irrelevant because the USN subs, as the Japanese, also had poor diving times even if they could dive deeper than IJN subs... But game only has crew and captain xp, mvr, speed and durability.
E14Y-carrying subs can operate their float planes even on the move if weather allows flying, even if they shouldn't, true. At least they only carry 1 and that plane has short range and will usually die every time it meets CAP.
E14Y-carrying subs can operate their float planes even on the move if weather allows flying, even if they shouldn't, true. At least they only carry 1 and that plane has short range and will usually die every time it meets CAP.
RE: IJN subs
Without mod the ASW warfare strongly benefits the Japanese in late war. But initially the only benefit/penalty for Japansese is the E14Y - should be employed in recon mission over ports and not on naval search. Instead it is great in naval search and a disgrace in recon.
For aircraft ASW you need to have a 70 ASW and put it 5000ft or less. Radar helps.
For aircraft ASW you need to have a 70 ASW and put it 5000ft or less. Radar helps.
RE: IJN subs
ORIGINAL: jmalter
your complaints are a bit too much, ev'ryone knows that airASW doesn't deliver kills, & 3/4 of reported airASW hits vs. enemy subs are FoW/bogus.
airASW is great for Detection, & a high DL reduces an enemy SS TF's ability to engage a target, esp. if your convoy is passing thru its hex.
but if you want to damage/kill an enemy SS lurker, you've got to send a competent 3-4 ship ASW TF to patrol thru its hex, & engage it in combat.
airASW that raises the DL on an enemy sub will be a big help, but can't deliver the hits to drive it back to base.
I think it really depends on how much your opponent trains his pilots. I like to lurk near choke points and harbor mouths-especially in 42 when my torpedoes suck but his ASW is just as sucky. However, he has plenty of good air groups with ASW skills saturating the areas and gets a fair number of hits. A rare sinking or two but plenty of returns to base with damage. So, air ASW is not ineffective. As the Allies, I do not devote much training in air ASW. The Allied DD ans PCs get so deadly by early 43 that I find it easier to just search with aircraft and kill with ASW TFs. But for Japan, I think it is well worth it to train up a lot of air ASW units.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: IJN subs
Comparison between Kriegsmarine and USN submarines is IMHO not irrelevant because the USN subs, as the Japanese, also had poor diving times even if they could dive deeper than IJN subs
Actually it is irrelevant. If the Germans with their relatively fast diving boats couldn't survive and fight under such Allied air cover as existed at any given time then the slow diving IJN subs logically would have an even harder time trying to do anything. Trying to do so, with the techical limitations of the time, should necessarily involve much higher and unsustainable losses.
Because the Pacific was a bigger ocean than the Atlantic the IJN was never operationally constrained to trying to fight in an air ASW environment thus their losses to air ASW were much less proportionally. The air ASW environment was deadly to submarines, especially those that spent 90% of their time on the surface (as every sub in the game of any nationality).
For a variety of coding reasons alone the IJN has been granted a completely unhistorical capability that no other navy had (and which, by reason of the technical limitations of their boats, they, of all nations, least deserve).
RE: IJN subs
Perhaps "Spence" could direct his boring whine to my PBEM oppo. He's losing his IJN boats by the proverbial boatload, and they're doing next to nothing.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: IJN subs
ORIGINAL: spence
Actually it is irrelevant.
By that time IJ air ASW does a decent job suppressing Allied subs
I have a feeling that the issue is somewhere between the keyboard and the seat. If IJN air can suppress your subs and kill them, your air should be able to do the same better as Allies have much, much better access to radars. Historical hindsight gives Japanese the chance to improve their aerial ASW. Hindsight gives both sides plenty of advantages and chances to fix things that didn't work in reality or try strategies that would have been too risky, among others.
RE: IJN subs
I lost close to 100 Allied subs in my last full campaign. My opponent lost virtually all of his Japanese subs as well. That was stock. We are playing babes and I expect it to be a little different this time around.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg