France

[dhucul2011]

Another silly question that someone can answer for me?

I have decided NOT to Vichy France.

When will France surrender outright?

They still hold Brest, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Nantes, Vichy and Marseilles.

What should I aim for?

Each end turn I get an option to surrender France to Germany but since it is blue I assume that it is a question for France and not the Axis.

[AlbertN]

Each City and Port if I got it correctly.
Surrender is indeed asked to French player.

Although I am a novice of the game so best to wait some veteran's input!

[Orm]

You need to occupy every French city with a "printed" factory. So you must capture Toulouse, Nantes, Vichy and Marseilles. But note that France will then fight on from the colonies. It is only the French units in mainland France that surrenders.

The surrender question is indeed for France.

[dhucul2011]

Thanks guys.

Why would France ever want to "surrender"? (Why would they ever say "yes" to that question?)

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: dhucul

Thanks guys.

Why would France ever want to "surrender"? (Why would they ever say "yes" to that question?)

That option is mostly included to avoid "gamey" situations. France could be reduced to one city and Germany makes no effort to take that city. For example to avoid a US entry roll. Note that the US entry roll is lower for surrendering.

[composer99]

Surrendering provides US entry, at half the value that conquest does. So instead of getting an entry marker and an 80% chance of a second entry marker, the US has a 90% chance of a single marker. It's not great, but it's better than nothing because Germany won't finish the conquest.

Apart from US entry, the French would want to surrender to relocate their home country to somewhere else (Senegal, Syria, Gabon, the colony in South America, whatever), so that they can get lending from the other Allies and build units, something that may not be possible while holding on to a not-quite-conquered France.

Surrendering France, and becoming incompletely conquered, is usually better than having Vichy installed (you retain control of the colonies & the fleet), so it's usually a good bet to do so if the Germans take enough factories but haven't captured Paris yet (this is, it must be said, fairly rare).

[AlbertN]

Hmm question here, why Germany would not conquest France then and keep it with 1 Factory eventually?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Disagree about incompletely conquered France being better for the Allies than Vichied France. I usually Vichy because I'm in a hurry as Germany, not because I think it's the optimal outcome. As long as Vichy is around, you can't invade Spain, and going after Gibraltar is often a tempting course of action. If I've already broken France, why would I limit my own options at that point?

As for not conquering France, the usual reasons are gamey bullshit ones. If you're playing with CBVs, the French have a whole bunch of them in their colonies that they can only start building when they're vichied or incompletely conquered. Or maybe you've isolated one city, say Metz, and taken the rest of the country. The French fleet is out of supply wherever it goes now, because there's no way to trace to a city in France. If they surrender, they get to pick a new Home Country, which will then supply the fleet.


Stuff like that.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Hmm question here, why Germany would not conquest France then and keep it with 1 Factory eventually?

That's why there's a surrender rule for gamey situations.

[brian brian]

It can become a tough decision for the Allies. Say Germany is determined to defeat England. Some naval builds reveal this somewhat and the Axis launch an invasion of Algeria. The British decide to fight hard in France and then Germany declines to install Vichy in the late summer of 1940. The French hold out in their mountain redoubts of Lyons and Toulouse, both tough hexes for the Axis to take. But the last two French cities become surrounded. Germany in particular needs to take Toulouse to force more passes in the Pyrenees on their way into Spain and on towards Gibraltar, but they can easily fail in even a very good initial attack on the hex. Meanwhile the French are heavily engaged in North Africa and at sea in the Mediterranean … but now their fleet is permanently out of supply and basically can't return to base.

Do the Allies surrender a strong thorn remaining in the Wehrmacht's side in the Pyrenees? If they don't the French effort in North Africa and the Med steadily weakens. So the decision can be to surrender to gain a new base for what remains of the French fleet. But it can be tempting to hold onto Toulouse into early 1941.

[Extraneous]

The Axis can install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered.

17.1 Creation
An Axis major power can choose to install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered. If more than one Axis major power occupies Paris, then Germany has first choice as to whether it wishes to establish a Vichy government.

If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. A line on the map marks the border. The capital of Metropolitan Vichy France is Vichy. Paris remains the capital of Occupied France.

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

France has 14 factories so it can surrender main land France (as an incomplete conquest) during any peace step that the Axis controls 7 factories. The Axis then could not install Vichy France.

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1 Conquest) of the major power if it doesn’t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

[michaelbaldur]

you are correct ..

but for the axis to take 7 factories, with out taking Paris is unlikely

[paulderynck]

Axis has to take 8 or more factories. The rule is:

During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

[Larry Smith]

You can still install a Vichy Government even if you also fulfill the requirements for conquest, the rules first take into consideration installing a Vichy government, and if the German refuses to do that, then the French player can surrender if they so chose. If the German controlled every French factory hex, it would be conquest - there would be no Vichy installation phase, and no surrender phase.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Larry Smith

You can still install a Vichy Government even if you also fulfill the requirements for conquest, the rules first take into consideration installing a Vichy government, and if the German refuses to do that, then the French player can surrender if they so chose. If the German controlled every French factory hex, it would be conquest - there would be no Vichy installation phase, and no surrender phase.

True.

Other home countries

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

But in the case of France the difference between installing Vichy France and surrender is important.


If France is surrenders it would:
Retain all its Territories.
Continue its trade agreement with Iraq (1 oil).
Be able to lend its French Indo-china resource to China or the CW (if it isn't already).

Instead of claiming French Indo-china Japan would have to DoW France and take it.
Free France would not be created and French units would still not co-operate with the CW.

[Extraneous]

There has been allot if discussion about the Axis taking Gibraltar and the Italians taking North Africa.
 
Has anyone given thought to the idea of sending USA "Peace Keepers" to North Africa (using Foreign troop commitments)?
 
 

[michaelbaldur]

usa have to be active to do that .. and then they cooperate with France

[composer99]

michaelbaldur, you are correct that a neutral US cannot enter the North African minors if they are aligned to France or Free France.

However, the US only cooperates with France/Free France if it is at war with Germany & Italy.

So "neutral" US units can appear in North Africa, although such would be a very rare occurrence.

[Extraneous]

9.1 Neutral major powers
A major power is a ‘neutral major power’ if it is not at war with any other major power. If it is at war with at least 1 major power, it’s called an ‘active major power’.
 
Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with. They can also go to sea.
 
A neutral major power can’t co-operate with any other major power (see 18. Co-operation)
 
Neutral major powers must always pick either a pass or a combined action (exception Germany in 1939 ~ see 10.1 Action types). Each naval unit a neutral major power moves (rather than each task force) counts as 1 naval move - every 5 convoy points counts as a naval unit (SiF option 9: every 2 convoy points (or any spare point) is a naval unit).

 

18. Co-operation
18.1 Who can co-operate
8. US and (non-Vichy) French units co-operate once the USA is at war with Germany and Italy.

 
True, the USA would have to be an active major power not at war with Germany and Italy.
 
 

[Numdydar]

Well isn't that impossible?