Basic info on War in the West 43-45

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Numdydar
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

The recent thread on WitE game balance drifted into a discussion about some of the unrealistic aspects of the WitE logistics model. As WitE 2.0 will develop from WitW I thought an explanation of WitW's model would be useful information for those suggesting improvements. IMO - the logistics model together with the new air model are the biggest changes between WitE and WitW.

Firstly some comments on the WitE system to set a baseline. In WitE supply (i.e. supplies, fuel, and replacements) can be drawn from any hex containing a working rail connected to the wider rail network (i.e. a green rail hex) and in effect supply movement within the rail network is unconstrained. From a functioning rail hex (in most cases) supply then travels by truck first to a HQ and then from the HQ to a Unit in a two phase process.

The Big Differences in WitW
- Supply moves around the map during the log phase as 'Freight' and it is tracked. When Freight gets to a unit it is converted into one of the four types of supply - Supplies, Fuel, Ammo or Replacements - but only if they exist in the production pools. (I think of it as cashing a cheque)
- Freight is created, stored and transferred between a network of Depots. Units will try to get their Freight from the nearest Depot. Unlike WitE supply does not move through HQs and you cannot get supply from any working rail - only a Depot. Depots also have Trucks which move Freight to Units. The Truck situation is similar to WitE - the fewer trucks and further you have to travel the less freight you will receive.
- Depots automatically move freight to each other by rail or sea (not truck).
- The ability to move Freight between Depots is constrained by two factors. Firstly Depots can only exist in a hex with a Port or a Railyard. The capacity of the Depot to handle freight is dependent on the size of the co-located Port or Railyard. A big port like Antwerp can handle much more Freight than a small port like Granville. Secondly there is a limit on the ability of the network to move Freight between Depots by ship or rail.
- Rail Capacity is governed by two factors - firstly Railyard Points which are produced by Railyards. Railyard Points represent rolling stock. The less you have the more difficult it is to move. Secondly the usage of a rail in each hex is recorded. As you move more by rail the track changes colour and the cost to move increases - representing congestion.
- Sea Capacity is limited by Port Points and Shipping. A unit can now have enough SMPs to unload but will be unable to do so as the port has maxed out which then impacts on the freight capacity in the log phase.
- The movement of Freight and the movement of Units by rail/sea are in direct competition so you need to balance moving units strategically with the logistic need of your units.
- As a player you can create Depots in hexes on the rail network with towns (inc Ports). You can specify the Priority of resupply for Corps/Army/Army Gp via their HQ and also for each Depot.

So what?
- The practical upshot of all this is that supply is more constrained. You are unlikely to get all the freight that you need no matter how you position your troops.
- As rail movement consumes Railyard Points not all rail lines are equal especially when unloading a unit - resulting in an increased SMP Cost.
- Similarly as depot capacity depends on the size of ports and railyards some lines of communication have much more capacity. It is no longer only a question of repairing the closest rail to the front line.
- As replacements also consume freight based on their size - putting a unit on refit in a Depot hex can suck up all the freight and leave others with almost nothing.
- Railing a unit to the rear for refit is possible but it will reduce the freight moving forward.
- There is no HQ Build Up function - you now have to create a Depot and allow freight to accumulate before launching an offensive.

I hope this gives you a flavour of the system - I have simplified some parts but hope it all makes sense. Feel free to ask any follow up questions.



To anyone that has ever played War in the Pacific, this all sounds very familiar [:D]
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SuluSea
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Here's a screenshot of a recent Allied AI invasion in June 44 near Dieppe in the Campaign 43 scenario. Notice the different size airfields on the map. We keep making steady progress and are striving for a Fall 2014 release. I can only assume the large number of Italian labor battalions are out fixing various railyards that have been bombed by the Allied air forces.

This is not the first time I have been linked with Hans Gruber. [:)]

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Thanks for taking time to share. I've been studying it here and there for fun and am eagerly anticipating the new game.

I'd like to add an opinion if you don't mind. I love the original map artwork of WITE [still use the original map and counters] but was hoping this map [the greens] would be a tad more lush looking.

As always best of luck.
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Richrd
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Richrd »

Would it be possible to see a screenshot of the playable map?
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

Not sure what you mean. The screenshot above is of the playable map. If you mean the entire map area, look at the small jump map and you can see the area within the blue rectangle is the area used by the campaigns. Even zoomed out and with a high resolution, the entire map area doesn't fit in one screen.
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Richrd
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Richrd »

Thank you. The jump map is fine, I just wanted an idea of what area was included.
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by MechFO »

The new logistics system looks like a big step forward.

I have mixed feelings about the new airbase system. Makes sense for 4-engine bombers but IMO for all other types the WITE system is a better and truer representation (perhaps best of both worlds would be, 4-engine bombers restricted to airfields, all other types unrestricted but receive readiness and supply bonuses when located on an airfield hex).

One big problem with the current WITE system I don't see addressed is synchronisation. If a unit spends it's full time allotment fighting through a position, another unit shouldn't be able to exploit with it's full movement allowance into the gap. IMO the lack of such a mechanic is a big reason for the snowballing that one constantly sees in WITE.
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by samba_liten »

Even small fighter units based in a field needed some logistics to keep them going. IMO the new system simulates this better than what WitE currently has.
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MechFO
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Even small fighter units based in a field needed some logistics to keep them going. IMO the new system simulates this better than what WitE currently has.

Up to and including 2engine bombers needed nothing more than a grass strip. Everything else could be handled by ad hoc mobile infrastructure. Of course readiness in adverse weather suffered, but operations were still possible.

You can check out some of the early WITE threads where this was extensively discussed.
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by The Guru »

One big problem with the current WITE system I don't see addressed is synchronisation. If a unit spends it's full time allotment fighting through a position, another unit shouldn't be able to exploit with it's full movement allowance into the gap.

Definitely. It is sad to see a game that with such depth in the reproduction of OB and equipement data burdened by a clumsy game mechanism.
This leads to silly optimal moves, where the units most in the rear travel all the way to the front open the breach with their last remaining movement points, so that the units up front can slip through with their first movement points.
Maybe if hexes where combat has occcured costed Mps (proportionately to the duration of the battle) this problem could be somewhat corrected.
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Numdydar »

TOAW has this feature.
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cardolan
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by cardolan »

ORIGINAL: The Guru


Definitely. It is sad to see a game that with such depth in the reproduction of OB and equipement data burdened by a clumsy game mechanism.

Being a big fan of WitE myself I think the IOUGO mechanism makes litle favour to the game. Long distances in Russia mitigate this somehow but i remain sceptical about this sistem working in France and Italy.

Would love to see this same game WEGO and with improved production.

amatteucci
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by amatteucci »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

TOAW has this feature.
Indeed. But it might be a real pain to have such a feature imported in WitE/WitW/etc. for the effects that this could have on the average time needed to complete a turn.
Perhaps a simpler solution could be something à la DCCB: crossing a hex just vacated by combat will cost a number of additional MPs equal to those previously expended by the assaulting units.
Lictuel
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Lictuel »

Is there any news on the planned WitW forum?
swkuh
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by swkuh »

in re "synchronization."

What's unrealistic about fresh units moving through, or past, depleted units that "opened" a front? Given the "week" duration of a move, seems entirely consistent with reported history.
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RedLancer
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by RedLancer »

ORIGINAL: MechFO

The new logistics system looks like a big step forward.

I have mixed feelings about the new airbase system. Makes sense for 4-engine bombers but IMO for all other types the WITE system is a better and truer representation (perhaps best of both worlds would be, 4-engine bombers restricted to airfields, all other types unrestricted but receive readiness and supply bonuses when located on an airfield hex).

One big problem with the current WITE system I don't see addressed is synchronisation. If a unit spends it's full time allotment fighting through a position, another unit shouldn't be able to exploit with it's full movement allowance into the gap. IMO the lack of such a mechanic is a big reason for the snowballing that one constantly sees in WITE.

I've hummed and haahed about replying to this pending the new forum but finally thought I'd reply.

The new airbase system is a big improvement over the much more abstracted WitE approach. The system matches both the infrastructure that is an airfield with the unit that supports it and finally the aircraft. Larger airfields handle more aircraft and are less susceptible to damage. WitW airbase units that exist in parallel with the runways are not stacked with the ground counters. I can understand that the use of the WitE system for smaller aircraft might seem attractive as it provides flexibility however I struggle to see how you would differentiate between using the two systems as you suggest? In WitE you move the airbase and the aircraft move too - in WitW you move aircraft between airbases. In fact as you are not limited to a set number of airbase counters you have much more flexibility - the TOE of the airbase unit auto adjusts to the correct support level. Also in WitE the move of an airbase counter impacts on all assigned airgroups - this doesn't happen in WitW although you need to plan ahead to set up airfields and leapfrog airgroups.

For ground movement the system is essentially the same as WitW. Personally I don't see the issue with synchronisation in an IGOUGO game. As I control all the counters and I can only move up to one stack at a time it is difficult to play in any other way. WitE works as its popularity shows.

Finally I return to your first comment on logistics. The new system is the game changer as it stops snowballing.

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STEF78
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by STEF78 »

Improvements sound great

Any precise idea of the release date?
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Joel Billings
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by Joel Billings »

We're trying to finish it so it can be released in the 4th quarter of this year. We're getting close, but as with all of these monsters it's impossible to commit to a specific date. The best you can say is that the number of interface and rule changes has dropped and should be minor from this point forward. This means we can focus on balance and fixing bugs. Of course, sometimes, bugs get found and fixed that impact balance and that forces another round of changes. We've got the ten scenarios that will ship with the game set now and they're at beta (although they will continue to be improved and victory conditions tweaked until release).

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by jwolf »

Joel, why does the Battleground Italy 43-45 scenario start in the middle of 44? Based on the number of turns maybe the start is July 43?
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RedLancer
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by RedLancer »

Yes that's a typo.  Battleground Italy starts on 10 Jul 43 with the Op HUSKY landings having just taken place.
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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45

Post by rebel15nc »

No official news on the release or progress since 08 11 14. Can we please get some current news? Also, what happened to the stand alone forum for the game? Thanks....
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