Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

[offenseman]

That is a great point about a/c VP and PDU-off. You will not see the flood of Tojos coming to replace the Oscar and thus your bombers will have an easier time. Also, you are using DBB air values. Zeroes flying in the top tier are maneuverability 2. Yes, only 2. In places like Burma where you can use Hurri IIa and AVG if available, sweep in the top tier. That will help. As Japan I see my opponent doing well in the top tier against A6M2 even with P40e and sometimes B (or early AVG equivalent)

And keep your chin up! [:)] For examples: One lucky torpedo hit that sinks a CV or BB and AV is setback a lot.

As Erik said, pull back and let his impatience work for you. Get those Buffaloes off your CVs and set up an ambush. If you loss the battle and AV happens, you think that will not be a change and you get the ships back in mid 43. If you win, AV never happens for him at all.

[offenseman]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

At the very least its a motivator to play on for both sides even when things are already decided. I struggled immensely with motivation in 44 and 45. No doubt Erik must have suffered that 10x worse (playing the losing side at that time). Had we played for VPs there is still something to strive for.

My last game with LoBaron and RobBrennanUK went poorly for me. It was a 2v2 that went bad early and I lost my partner in 6/42 after he ran the economy into the ground. Adjusting to that and having to pick up the pieces of trying to figure out what he was doing in his areas of responsibility was troublesome. I made several mistakes during that time that really hurt and effectively put me into a situation where I was at least 6 months behind schedule. In other words, places that should have been mine never were and they became major bases to start reconquering areas far too soon. We were not playing for AV at any time and by late 43 it was apparent that I was getting smoked badly. I no longer recall if they achieved AV in 1/44 or 1/45 but we played until 1/45 despite them probably being bored at times and me being depressed every time I loaded a 001 file to watch. I owed them that much and along the way we all learned more and got to see action all the way through 44 including several major late war fleet actions, and an allied blitz of China.

The result of all of it was we started game two, this time as a 2v1 [:D] Scen 1 DBB-C. Again we play without AV.

My long winder point is that it is sometimes not the road you travel but what you see on the journey.

[Cribtop]

Joc and Obvert, not trying to derail the thread, but I'm curious about the comments about the breakdown of the "simulation aspect" you mentioned in your late war game. What, specifically, do you mean? Did the numbers just get so big that things went haywire a la GreyJoy vs Rader, or was it more than that? Just curious.

As for the game, focus your efforts on delaying the destruction of China. Tough to do but that to me is the biggest VP danger you face right now. I would avoid panic elsewhere on the map as you have 11 months, but as the game enters Summer I would have a backup Hail Mary plan in place if you feel auto-vic is still in the cards. Something non-cheesy but surprising you could do to re-take a few key bases right at the Death of December. For the most part though, just hold the lines you've established and accept losses to avoid AV. One thing to consider is that you too are PDU OFF. Are there ways to engage with groups using inferior a/c that would help VP ratios? What about a strat bombing campaign at Magwe? I also note that Mr. Kane is studiously avoiding NOPAC. Might be a place where you can stir up some trouble on the cheap.

[offenseman]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Joc and Obvert, not trying to derail the thread, but I'm curious about the comments about the breakdown of the "simulation aspect" you mentioned in your late war game. What, specifically, do you mean? Did the numbers just get so big that things went haywire a la GreyJoy vs Rader, or was it more than that? Just curious.

As for the game, focus your efforts on delaying the destruction of China. Tough to do but that to me is the biggest VP danger you face right now. I would avoid panic elsewhere on the map as you have 11 months, but as the game enters Summer I would have a backup Hail Mary plan in place if you feel auto-vic is still in the cards. Something non-cheesy but surprising you could do to re-take a few key bases right at the Death of December. For the most part though, just hold the lines you've established and accept losses to avoid AV. One thing to consider is that you too are PDU OFF. Are there ways to engage with groups using inferior a/c that would help VP ratios? What about a strat bombing campaign at Magwe? I also note that Mr. Kane is studiously avoiding NOPAC. Might be a place where you can stir up some trouble on the cheap.

+1 on the strat bombing. Up in Burma even Wellingtons can do good work against Oscars.

Another idea is to send the USN CV fleet to the IO. and strat bomb Palembang with it. At the least you get him reacting to you.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: offenseman
My long winder point is that it is sometimes not the road you travel but what you see on the journey.

And that is a very good point indeed! [:)] I guess it will depend on what kind of personality you are. I´m not one of those who play to the very end. I lose complete motivation the second its apparent I will win. CIV is a good example of this where I almost always end the game before I have actually won. This is where I struggle without playing for VPs. If I know a Japanese draw is still in the mix that would drive me on. When playing "for fun" I had to invent motivators along the road. But its not the same incentive for me at least.

But each to his own. [:)] Many people on this board play "historic games" for years and gets loads of fun out of it and that is the main point.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Joc and Obvert, not trying to derail the thread, but I'm curious about the comments about the breakdown of the "simulation aspect" you mentioned in your late war game. What, specifically, do you mean? Did the numbers just get so big that things went haywire a la GreyJoy vs Rader, or was it more than that? Just curious.

Basically yes. In the end with had thousands and thousands of planes focused on a very small area of the map things went kind of weird at times. Or really weird to be honest. At least it mostly hit us both equally hard. But it was immensely frustrating at times. Even more so when trying to maintain a semblance of "historical plausibility" [:D]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop
As for the game, focus your efforts on delaying the destruction of China. Tough to do but that to me is the biggest VP danger you face right now. I would avoid panic elsewhere on the map as you have 11 months, but as the game enters Summer I would have a backup Hail Mary plan in place if you feel auto-vic is still in the cards. Something non-cheesy but surprising you could do to re-take a few key bases right at the Death of December. For the most part though, just hold the lines you've established and accept losses to avoid AV. One thing to consider is that you too are PDU OFF. Are there ways to engage with groups using inferior a/c that would help VP ratios? What about a strat bombing campaign at Magwe? I also note that Mr. Kane is studiously avoiding NOPAC. Might be a place where you can stir up some trouble on the cheap.

Thanks for the tips. [:)] I agree China will be a very important factor. But Tom knows what he is doing and I expect to lose everything short of the mountains by summer. After his initial rush he has now shifted focus more to the East of Sian while ever so slowly wearing down my roadblocks. The Ankang roadblock has lost 150 RAW AV in just 12 days due to bombarding and air attacks. And with no reinforcements available he will break through any day now.

If he fails a DA his simply put them into rest mode and continue to bomb away for 2 weeks or so. He then tries again. Slowly chipping away at my forces. Pretty much the same thing I did as the allies in 44 and 45. [:)]

Its a good idea to try a hail Mary in late 42. If I´m going to lose I might as well go out with a bang. Provoking a CV battle somewhere perhaps? Or doing a GJ? [:D]

Right now I don´t have any place where I can engage him in the air. In China I lack supply and airbases. Elsewhere I simply don´t have the range. I hope this will change as the front lines creep closer in Burma/India/SOPAC. I can´t even get the AVG in to action right now. He is still sitting outside Rangoon and as I mentioned in China I can´t reach him.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

One thing to consider is that you too are PDU OFF. Are there ways to engage with groups using inferior a/c that would help VP ratios? What about a strat bombing campaign at Magwe? I also note that Mr. Kane is studiously avoiding NOPAC. Might be a place where you can stir up some trouble on the cheap.

This is a great comment and those expressed by offenseman. I know your views on PDU-off Jocke and while I don't agree with your reasoning, it is something you should be taking advantage of. You will be facing limited numbers of Tojo's and dealing mostly with Oscar's in 1942 to mid-43. You should be planning accordingly. Get your pilot training up and look to contest the air war in my opinion. This is where you have the best chance to make up ground in VP's until the Allied naval and LCU deficits can be addressed. I also think you are too pessimistic about China. You know yourself from our game how Chinese units in 3x terrain with SL's can halt the Japanese advance. That will buy you the time you need to stave off AV elsewhere. You know the capabilities of the Allies from your game against Erik, use what you learned from that game and take it to Mr. Kane. You'll find he's good, but not Superman, he's playing the Japanese after all. [:D]

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


Right now I don´t have any place where I can engage him in the air. In China I lack supply and airbases. Elsewhere I simply don´t have the range. I hope this will change as the front lines creep closer in Burma/India/SOPAC. I can´t even get the AVG in to action right now. He is still sitting outside Rangoon and as I mentioned in China I can´t reach him.

Why is he out of range? Because he wants to be. How can you make him pay for this? Ground attacks. Destroying devices earns VPs just as well as destroying airplanes. Force the Japanese to bring fighter cover over areas where they will be in range of your fighters.

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Only 44 days into the war, well over 300 days before the end of 42.

Plus, IMVHO, why play any game like this for points????
[/quote]

The idea that wars are fought to the bitterest end is a pretty recent innovation. Japan thought they could come to an agreement with the US after the US became war-weary. Japan's real life plan can be equated to "achieve autovictory on points in 1943". Without that goal Japan's best choice is to surrender on Dec 7 1941.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Only 44 days into the war, well over 300 days before the end of 42.

Plus, IMVHO, why play any game like this for points????

The idea that wars are fought to the bitterest end is a pretty recent innovation. Japan thought they could come to an agreement with the US after the US became war-weary. Japan's real life plan can be equated to "achieve autovictory on points in 1943". Without that goal Japan's best choice is to surrender on Dec 7 1941.
[/quote]

I cant see that the US , Commonwealth & Chinese would ever have found any terms to come to peace with the japanese.
This "war-weary" comment about the USA always surprises me, they had a short WW1 which didnt place a heavy drain on its manpower, only entered WW2 after 27 months of world conflict and in the big picture saw little land conflict until the recovery of the Phillipines (I qualify this as 2 Divs or greater) 80 years earlier it had fought amongst itself for more than 4 years and over 600,000 deaths, I cant see how the loss of a few easily replace Combat ships, some islands that the average American had never heard of or even the collapse of China would have seen the Allies scurrying to the ceasefire tables.

VP & AV are artificial & irrelevant to the campaign, maybe relevant if you only want to play for a year of game time, but as many have recommended, force the player into stupid, short term strategies "just to beat AV" and is wholly to the advantage of the JFB who can, with his 100% knowledge of the Allied capacities, play a strategy to amass points rather than a secure strategic position.

Plus, we have reviewed just about every piece of data in the game, are the VP values correct??? What value has a low lying piece of coral atoll that no-one has heard of??
End of whinge.

[BBfanboy]

Sort-of agree with you JeffK.
Having a game end after only a year of game-time would be a big disappointment after all the work trying to manage hoards of units and
implement a strategy that will take time to unfold. Even more so if the Allied player is a newbie and makes some mistakes that cost more
than the usual rap on the knuckles. It is bound to discourage his addiction to the game! [:)]

One of the best games I have followed on the forum was Greyjoy's first stint as master of Japan. Watching him set up his series of defensive
perimeters and skillfully use each one and then slip back to the next with minimal losses was far better than seeing an Allied juggernaut
crush everything in sight from mid-1943 on. I am sure the challenge was enjoyable for his opponent too.

[Cribtop]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Only 44 days into the war, well over 300 days before the end of 42.

Plus, IMVHO, why play any game like this for points????

The idea that wars are fought to the bitterest end is a pretty recent innovation. Japan thought they could come to an agreement with the US after the US became war-weary. Japan's real life plan can be equated to "achieve autovictory on points in 1943". Without that goal Japan's best choice is to surrender on Dec 7 1941.

I cant see that the US , Commonwealth & Chinese would ever have found any terms to come to peace with the japanese.
This "war-weary" comment about the USA always surprises me, they had a short WW1 which didnt place a heavy drain on its manpower, only entered WW2 after 27 months of world conflict and in the big picture saw little land conflict until the recovery of the Phillipines (I qualify this as 2 Divs or greater) 80 years earlier it had fought amongst itself for more than 4 years and over 600,000 deaths, I cant see how the loss of a few easily replace Combat ships, some islands that the average American had never heard of or even the collapse of China would have seen the Allies scurrying to the ceasefire tables.

VP & AV are artificial & irrelevant to the campaign, maybe relevant if you only want to play for a year of game time, but as many have recommended, force the player into stupid, short term strategies "just to beat AV" and is wholly to the advantage of the JFB who can, with his 100% knowledge of the Allied capacities, play a strategy to amass points rather than a secure strategic position.

Plus, we have reviewed just about every piece of data in the game, are the VP values correct??? What value has a low lying piece of coral atoll that no-one has heard of??
End of whinge.
[/quote]

See most people forget Texas fought for the South. This is why the Confederacy lasted as long as it did. Later generations forget to factor in that TEXANS are fighting for the US now and thus assume the US will wuss out.

OK, that last sentence was probably Texan jingoism taken to the extreme. Nonetheless, the point applies to the US generally. Other nations often interpret our discussions as weakness and are shocked when we unite against them, only to resume bickering once the external threat abates. Weird folk, us Amis.

PS - the quote feature flamed out on this. Assume I started with "See most people forget Texas" and this will make more sense.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

This is a great comment and those expressed by offenseman. I know your views on PDU-off Jocke and while I don't agree with your reasoning, it is something you should be taking advantage of. You will be facing limited numbers of Tojo's and dealing mostly with Oscar's in 1942 to mid-43. You should be planning accordingly. Get your pilot training up and look to contest the air war in my opinion. This is where you have the best chance to make up ground in VP's until the Allied naval and LCU deficits can be addressed. I also think you are too pessimistic about China. You know yourself from our game how Chinese units in 3x terrain with SL's can halt the Japanese advance. That will buy you the time you need to stave off AV elsewhere. You know the capabilities of the Allies from your game against Erik, use what you learned from that game and take it to Mr. Kane. You'll find he's good, but not Superman, he's playing the Japanese after all. [:D]

Hey Joseph. [:)]

Pilot training is in full swing already. I hope to get opportunities in a couple of months.

Sadly I think I´m pretty spot on about China. The roadblock to Ankang is slowly crumbling despite a 3x terrain. Tom is slowly wearing them down using DAs, bombardments and bombings from the air. First attack was 1:6 for him. Last turn another DA got a 1:2. I have only about 7-10 days before he breaks through. Behind the roadblock he has a full Corps backed up by armor that will quickly move up to Ankang and threaten Chungking = game over in China.

Hopefully I can keep him off Chungking for a while but I´ll continue to be pessimistic.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain
Why is he out of range? Because he wants to be. How can you make him pay for this? Ground attacks. Destroying devices earns VPs just as well as destroying airplanes. Force the Japanese to bring fighter cover over areas where they will be in range of your fighters.

I wish I could to that. But he is out of bomber range as well. [:)] Besides all I got are Lysanders with 30 EXP pilots...for now. That will change in a couple of months though. [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]China - 25th of January[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

So this is the current situation. I have to make a decision about Sian very shortly. I´m slowly crumbling at every roadblock. I can´t recover disablements and Tom can. Without any reserves I have no possibility to rotate troops in and out to allow them R&R. While the 2600 AV from Changsha is arriving at the theater I´m very reluctant to put them on the front line as they are my last reserves.

I know Sian is undefendable. I think its time to start pulling out and forming a new defensive line just West of Ankang going all the way up to Lanchow.

Thoughts?

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]China - 26th of January[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

A small update on the Sian situation. The river crossing NE of Sian sadly was a Japanese success.

Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 34871 troops, 266 guns, 214 vehicles, Assault Value = 1133

Defending force 25009 troops, 154 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 767

Japanese adjusted assault: 747

Allied adjusted defense: 471

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1293 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 141 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Vehicles lost 50 (1 destroyed, 49 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2425 casualties reported
Squads: 48 destroyed, 121 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 29 (2 destroyed, 27 disabled)

Assaulting units:
15th Tank Regiment
17th Division
15th Division
6th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co

Defending units:
47th Chinese Corps
42nd Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
84th Chinese Corps

My troops are pretty much shattered and will most likely fall in the next attack. There are no reinforcements available to send here. All I can do is hope supply will limit his abilities.

He also do a DA at the roadblock due E of Sian.

Ground combat at 86,41 (near Loyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 62704 troops, 566 guns, 199 vehicles, Assault Value = 1895

Defending force 69677 troops, 243 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1673

Japanese adjusted assault: 803

Allied adjusted defense: 661

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4973 casualties reported
Squads: 46 destroyed, 389 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 51 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 34 disabled
Guns lost 25 (2 destroyed, 23 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
4239 casualties reported [:(]
Squads: 81 destroyed, 223 disabled [:(]
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 18 (8 destroyed, 10 disabled)

Assaulting units:
32nd Division
16th Ind.Mixed Brigade
37th Division
110th Division
41st Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th/C Division
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Army
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1st Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
85th Chinese Corps
7th Group Army
34th Group Army

I would have needed a crushing win here in order to free some troops for the block on the NE of Sian. Sadly the troops I had moving out (in combat mode) took an absolute beating and will now be out for 3-6 months. Tom will recover in 10-15 days while I won´t.

An all to familiar sight of supply in the red are starting to show everywhere in China now. I had hoped with the Burma road open I could stay in white for a little bit longer. No so such luck!

[Lowpe]

Taking Ankang so early is simply devilish. Mr. Kane is launching a really nice focused attack in China. I think the IJA will cut the road north of Sian very quickly and you will be in a bigger pickle.... [:(]

I am worried about the lack of depth near the river crossing the 8th Route Army is defending & Sian. From the map, I would be falling back now from the exposed position south and east of Sian. I would be trying like the devil to build a new line.

What are your plans for the Chinese artillery?

[ny59giants]

Going for northern China makes sense for Japan as the oil is up there. It will cut off the Chinese from fuel to feed her small heavy industry spread out across the country. Thus, making your supply situation even worse. From my experience vs Mr Kane, he will use his massive stacks of heavy artillery from Manchuria to wear you down. Add in the constant air attacks and you are in trouble here.

Note - Its early, but file this note away. If you can develop Ledo to size 5 AF, then those old B-17D have great range to reach into China. They can hit Lanchow once he gets there.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Taking Ankang so early is simply devilish. Mr. Kane is launching a really nice focused attack in China. I think the IJA will cut the road north of Sian very quickly and you will be in a bigger pickle.... [:(]

Indeed that is my biggest worry. If the troops in the Sian sector gets cut off from the Chungking basin I´m toast!

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I am worried about the lack of depth near the river crossing the 8th Route Army is defending & Sian. From the map, I would be falling back now from the exposed position south and east of Sian. I would be trying like the devil to build a new line.

Yeah, sadly there are nothing more to throw into the grinder. I had hoped a river crossing would deter him until I could scrape up some reinforcements. With the successful rivercrossing that went down the drain. I´ve already started a small scale retreat E and S of Sian.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
What are your plans for the Chinese artillery?

My "plan" is to try and use it where it can make a difference. Right now most of it will reach Sian in 2-3 weeks.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Going for northern China makes sense for Japan as the oil is up there. It will cut off the Chinese from fuel to feed her small heavy industry spread out across the country. Thus, making your supply situation even worse. From my experience vs Mr Kane, he will use his massive stacks of heavy artillery from Manchuria to wear you down. Add in the constant air attacks and you are in trouble here.

Note - Its early, but file this note away. If you can develop Ledo to size 5 AF, then those old B-17D have great range to reach into China. They can hit Lanchow once he gets there.

Can´t downgrade any squadrons to the D model as its PDU OFF and all D squadrons withdraw soon. [:)]