Feedback - new DBB air data

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ny59giants
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm

Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by ny59giants »

I'm now in May '44 using the new air data from Symon playing the Allies in a PBEM vs Olorin. We switched over once it came out which was around the beginning of '44. What are your impressions of it if you are in the second half of the war?? For me, the P-47s are uber-fighters!! We are playing without any altitude restrictions. Here is what happened last turn.
Morning Air attack on Provisionl Tank Brigade, at 54,59 , near Tavoy

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 34,276 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 27

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 30
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

I'm flying LRCAP from Moulmien while his sweeps come from his uber-base at Bangkok.
Morning Air attack on Provisionl Tank Brigade, at 54,59 , near Tavoy

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 33,514 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 36

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 27
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

P-47s, P-38s, and Spitfires VIIIs all have max altitude advantage with new data. They have greater speed to make things even worse for Japan.
Morning Air attack on IV Indian Corps, at 54,59 , near Tavoy

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 34,514 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 48

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 31514 feet

I'm at 36k or 37k, so I get the bounce.
Morning Air attack on Dobo , at 83,116

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 12

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P-38J Lightning sweeping at 35000 feet

CAP engaged:
S-306 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes

Even in eastern DEI, my P-38s can sweep in over the LRCAP of Jacks.


Part of me loves these results and I can show other turns with similar results. However, I've played Japan and would be discouraged if this happened to my fighter force day after day.

Comments??
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obvert
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by obvert »

Well, sweeping into P-47s in any scenario is not a good idea, especially if he can't get up with you. With the lightning sweep it's very small numbers of Jacks, outnumbered as well, and short detection times. I've seen Jacks climb up 3-5k over set altitude to get an advantage over sweepers (although maybe in this case that would be above their max altitude).

Some of the late war Japanese stuff is improved quite a lot too with these changes. I'd have a feeling your sweeps hitting his wall of CAP might fare a bit worse if he had radar and numbers on his side.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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Olorin
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by Olorin »

This is my first pbem that reaches '44, so I can't compare these results with any previous games of mine. I've learned to live with it and I try to avoid A2A whenever possible. Before this thread I assumed these results are normal, since everyone talks about the P-47 being the king after '44. Let's wait for more experienced posters than me to comment on this.
JocMeister
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by JocMeister »

While the P-47 certainly rules the sky numbers are very limited until the "N" version arrives in 3(?)/45. I would suggest though to implement a max altitude CAP to get rid of the extreme results caused by the "dive effect". I think it makes for a better game for both sides.

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ny59giants
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by ny59giants »

I would suggest though to implement a max altitude CAP to get rid of the extreme results caused by the "dive effect". I think it makes for a better game for both sides.

I see your point Jocke, but one of the things that Symon did was lower the ceiling on most models. You don't find the P-38s operating above 40k. If you look at the data, you steadily get an increase in altitude with each new generation of fighter.
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Symon
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by Symon »

Things probably are not happening for the reasons you are thinking. Both sides lost max altitude, but allies lost more proportionately, and P-38J a lot more. IJ planes have a bit more speed than before.

P-47D atiltude is 37200, was 42000: speed is same as it ever was : - 4800’
P-38J altitude is 34550, was 44000: speed is same as it ever was: - 9450’
Spit VIII altitude is 36770, was 41500: speed is same as it ever was: - 4730’

J2M2 altitude is 32700, was 37400: speed 397, was 371: - 4700’, +26mph
Ki-84a altitude is 31500, was 34400: speed 406, was 392: - 2900’, +14mph
N1K2-J altitude is 31300, was 35300: speed 397, was 369: - 4000’, +28mph

Later Allied planes ALWAYS had a max altitude advantage. It used to be much bigger. It’s now somewhat smaller. Later Allied planes ALWAYS had a speed advantage. It used to be much bigger. It’s now somewhat smaller.

The model reduces some of the disparity and reduces the effects of the disparities. It does not eliminate them. The bounce still exists. Using the old model you would have lost 8 -10 (or more), instead of 4, 6, or 7. [8D]
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
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ny59giants
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by ny59giants »

Symon - I was hoping to get some comments from other players who are using the new air data that you did for DBB. This is the farthest I've gone in a PBEM and I don't know exactly what to expect. It seems to me that this is to be expected at this point in the war and with the changes, there is not so much of a difference with what you thought would be seen here. I'll get tto see the whole war with these changes once I start J3 newest mod, Between the Storm.
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Symon
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by Symon »

When you are looking at stuff, Mike, it's important to realize a couple things.
First: the computer gamer people will do all they can to break the model to get a win. Can't help that, but one does not design a model for the people that always run at the 3 sigma points. One must let them do their nonsense (frankly, they are irrelevant in any grand scheme of things), and design around the nominal sweet spot.
Second: there is a bounce code in the executable. It exists and there's nothing that can be done about it. A "fix" is to have every single airframe have a max altitude of 28-30k feet, such that the "bounce" is only applicable to the differential in "set" altitude. You can imagine the howls coming from players who have their own little airplane stats on their own little airplanes. [:D]
Third: we did what we did in terms of the nominal solution. The weenies can always break it, because that's what weenies do. Thing is, you don't listen to the weenies, rather you make sure your nominal solution is acceptable, and fork the weenies. [8D]
Fourth: statistical analysis. Demming analysis, if you will. None of this "I saw it in a Game Combat Report" crap. I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the Combat Report is an abstraction and is simply a text string pulled up by the executable, and has little bearing on reality. Forget the computer generated Combat Reports. They lie. [:D]

We been doing this for years. You want to know how to run airplanes against one another? Spread on spread, with pilot exp on an axis, you might want to do some testing. We have; we know just what's gonna happen. Think it's wise for modders to come to their own conclusions. But not on the basis of single game, single random seed, non-normalized, results. [8D]
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
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rook749
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RE: Feedback - new DBB air data

Post by rook749 »

AirGriff and I have been playing the Sen 028 DaBigBabes-A with the new air changes from December 7th and all I can say they seem to work much better. We are only into June of 1942 but it has allowed me to use the P-39D and P-40E to a little better effect. I have found as I better understand the air model of the game in addition to the air changes --- it makes for a far better "feel" to the air war. It's not perfect but it is soooo much better. Now, neither one of us is trying to break the air model either and I am sure that it helps.

The more I learn the more I think with the air changes, an advanced understanding of pilot training, proper use of radar and layered CAP, you can even manage someone whom is trying to break the system.
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