What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

[bo]

edo it

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo
Not being smart in any way flip but why dont you get involved with MWIF they could use some help with netplay [&o]

Bo

Bo,

I do not have the time or desire to sink my teeth into another game related software project. Back in the 1990's I only joined the Third ReichPC team
because that was a game I had enjoyed for many years. My experience in BETA in that project was good (I didn't join to "play" the game, I joined to make the game "better")
up until the resources ran out. The game could have been GREAT (not the AI, but in the sense that all the rules/map worked properly).

It ISN'T' but when I win Powerball I will attempt to buy the rights and redo it properly.

Redo it properly, 3rd Reich or Mwif [:D]

Sorry could not help that [:(]

Bo

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Dear Erik:

Thanks for your post. While I can't argue with the logic of your proposed path forward, I am very frustrated with the starting point--ie, the state of the game upon release. When I bought the game, I knew that the AI would come later, and that NetPlay "wasn't quite finished". What I didn't realize was that after several months, the dev team would still be focused solely on "functional area fixes," with netplay and AI still over the horizon and no word even about the release of the single-theater scenarios.

To other posters: sorry if some of us idiots want to express our opinion now and then, sorry for expressing opinions contrary to your exalted wisdom. And I don't agree that it is "senseless" to argue about how long this process is taking, or that no other approach was possible--alternative approach(es) would have been to (1) delay release until more of the bugs had been fixed prior to, rather than after, release; or (2) explicitly warn potential buyers that they were not buying a game without AI (to be released sometime) or netplay (to be released soon), but rather a beta release without AI or netplay. I for one would have kept my money in my pocket.

The idiot that I am is not prepared to buy unfinished games for full price, so I guarantee this is the last big Matrix game I buy without waiting a couple/several months after release to see if it is fully baked.

+ 1

I agree fully on what you've written here.

Let me just say on bug fixing that it goes slowly, but I can really see that progress is being made. To slow, but we can't do a lot about that...

Personally I think that anyone here is entitled to express his views on how things are. I don't think anyone needs to apologize for this, as long as one stays polite.

I'm still hoping for netplay before Christmas... But don't kill the messenger if this doesn't seem to be the case...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Drunk, true. It's just so, how should I say, "transparent", to me is all, too much experience in the system development arena. It gets my blood boiling. Bo, you are one of those guys who created this work of art, I congratulate you, I certainly didn't have the time to contribute. Patience is what is needed now, as before. I still have the faith, the game is awesome as is but I too am dying for AI.

Thank you for that compliment but outside of the AAR's and some minor bug reporting, I could not carry the keyboards of most of the beta testers that are still here and others who have left, my only regret is that some people have told me they purchased the game do to my AAR's and if they are upset with the game than I deeply apologize to them, that was not my intentions, I just wanted to show the capabilities of the game.

I feel guilty and it has bothered me ever since.

Bo

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Drunk, true. It's just so, how should I say, "transparent", to me is all, too much experience in the system development arena. It gets my blood boiling. Bo, you are one of those guys who created this work of art, I congratulate you, I certainly didn't have the time to contribute. Patience is what is needed now, as before. I still have the faith, the game is awesome as is but I too am dying for AI.

Thank you for that compliment but outside of the AAR's and some minor bug reporting, I could not carry the keyboards of most of the beta testers that are still here and others who have left, my only regret is that some people have told me they purchased the game do to my AAR's and if they are upset with the game than I deeply apologize to them, that was not my intentions, I just wanted to show the capabilities of the game.

I feel guilty and it has bothered me ever since.

Bo

You are feeling guilty? Why? It wasn't your decision to put the game on the market. It wasn't mine, it wasn't Steve's too. It was Matrix who made the decision. They need to feel guilty. Period.

So I won't worry about that one. Sure, we sometimes get nasty words on this forum, but I always say to myself: that goes on the account of Matrix, not on the beta test team. I want the game to succeed and if it's a bumpy road, that's too bad. So I keep trashing on the thing and I keep trying to take the questions of the customers and see if I can help them (and get the bugs out in the open).

I expect us to laugh at all this mess in about two or three years time...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Samichlaus

The missing AI is the ONLY reason why I didn't buy the game yet...
And I'm pretty sure, that there are many others that didn't for the same reason.

Hi Samichlaus

I will try to explain those feelings hopefully without angering anyone. The game is awsome IMO, I worked on it day and night for several years enjoyed every moment in learning a game I knew nothing about. I also bought CWIF from ADG to help me learn the game before I became a beta tester, I would not recommend CWIF to anyone now because MWIF blows it out of the water. It too had plenty of troubles that were never properly resolved but thats another story.

If 100 dollars does not affect your living standards too much I think buying the game would help you understand the most complex computer war game ever put on the market before you started to play againdst humans or an AI. The books alone are worth the money if you like to read books IMO. Just a suggestion good or bad.

I know it sounds like I am down on the game but in my heart I know that is not true. When I joined the beta team I had visions of MWIF being the biggest seller in the history of Matrix. I did not give one hoot how much Matrix made or what Steve made more power to them. To me it was a matter of pride in trying to bring this game to some kind of fruitation.

What could have been different, this is just my opinion and no ones else. Instead of trying to do everything at once to make it a reflection of the famous board game, it could have been done in segments [have no knowledge if this is right] I know the ship has sailed [:(]

Maybe a simplified supply code, basic uncomplicated rules, if possible add ons later just to get the game up and running, I have some bitter feelings about if some Mongolian outfit in inner or outer or west or east Mongolia is in or out of supply, this had taken forever to solve if it is even resolved now, this is very difficult for Steve I have no doubt about that. I know the ship has sailed.

No one has answerd me as to why Matrix released a game without an AI for the first time in their storied history, look, thank god for Matrix, they give us the games we play and enjoy. I find it a little strange but thats just me.

"While the Beta's are doing a wonderful job there was no way that they could have found the bugs in the code that the people here have done." This is a quote from my friend, hope hes my friend still [:(] Numdydar, he was referring to why the game was released now instead of later. If I answer that one I may be violating my NDS if I have not already done so. Lets just say I have a slight disagreement with that.

Some posters here have called the game a niche development game, what niche, this is the game war gamers have been waiting for forever, anyone who likes WW2 games with nato counters this is the game of the century for them, many thousands of them.

It will get done someday.

P.S. I personally thrive on the posts, I love different opinions on this or that, I enjoy conversing over the internet with the many different nationalities represented here, I respect them all and I expect the same consideration that I show them to be shown to me, we can all disagree but it has to be with respect for all opinions.

Thank You

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Drunk, true. It's just so, how should I say, "transparent", to me is all, too much experience in the system development arena. It gets my blood boiling. Bo, you are one of those guys who created this work of art, I congratulate you, I certainly didn't have the time to contribute. Patience is what is needed now, as before. I still have the faith, the game is awesome as is but I too am dying for AI.

Thank you for that compliment but outside of the AAR's and some minor bug reporting, I could not carry the keyboards of most of the beta testers that are still here and others who have left, my only regret is that some people have told me they purchased the game do to my AAR's and if they are upset with the game than I deeply apologize to them, that was not my intentions, I just wanted to show the capabilities of the game.

I feel guilty and it has bothered me ever since.

Bo

You are feeling guilty? Why? It wasn't your decision to put the game on the market. It wasn't mine, it wasn't Steve's too. It was Matrix who made the decision. They need to feel guilty. Period.

So I won't worry about that one. Sure, we sometimes get nasty words on this forum, but I always say to myself: that goes on the account of Matrix, not on the beta test team. I want the game to succeed and if it's a bumpy road, that's too bad. So I keep trashing on the thing and I keep trying to take the questions of the customers and see if I can help them (and get the bugs out in the open).

I expect us to laugh at all this mess in about two or three years time...

Thank you Peter

Bo

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.


- Erik

Bo,

Erik explains how a choice was made to remove the AI from initial release. The "why" was to release a product earlier than it would have been if release was put on hold until the AI was completed.
I just don't get what you don't understand here? Either earlier release with no AI on release or a later one with an AI. Getting ANY company to be specific about issues is very rare.

Second guessing or 20-20 hindsight is difficult without knowing the details (which will never be divulged) of the contracts between ADG and Matrix, and between Matrix and Steve.

Does this make sense to you?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.


- Erik

Bo,

Erik explains how a choice was made to remove the AI from initial release. The "why" was to release a product earlier than it would have been if release was put on hold until the AI was completed.
I just don't get what you don't understand here? Either earlier release with no AI on release or a later one with an AI. Getting ANY company to be specific about issues is very rare.

Second guessing or 20-20 hindsight is difficult without knowing the details (which will never be divulged) of the contracts between ADG and Matrix, and between Matrix and Steve.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes, sending you a pm.

Bo

[WIF_Killzone]

Idiots, I remember the time all these conversations came up previously. The majority of forum members (including me) wanted the game released asap, with or without AI. There were Forum members who said I wont buy the game until it includes an AI, that was their choice, and I respect that. Matrix unequivocally stated this in the initial release so stfu.

[wworld7]

Bo, I got your email. I cant reply until I gry on my computer eithrr tonight or tomorroe.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Bo, I got your email. I cant reply until I gry on my computer eithrr tonight or tomorroe.

No problem, kinda lengthy but thats me.

Bo

[76mm]

Idiots, I remember the time all these conversations came up previously.

I wonder if "idiots" means something else where you are from? Where I come from, using the word in this context is rude, insulting, and completely unnecessary.

Or would you prefer that the rest of us frankly express our opinion of your conduct in similar language?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Idiots, I remember the time all these conversations came up previously.

I wonder if "idiots" means something else where you are from? Where I come from, using the word in this context is rude, insulting, and completely unnecessary.

Or would you prefer that the rest of us frankly express our opinion of your conduct in similar language?

+1

[juntoalmar]

<offtopic>

Oh, how many times I have wondered that a supermillionare (like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Zuckerberg...) was a fan of one of these wargames (WIF, AWAW, Third Reich) and they put an amazing amount of money to build it properly.

We should try to join rich people to our cause...

</offtopic>

[Courtenay]

You mean like Curt Shilling and ASL? [:)]

[Numdydar]

Yes. That turned out really well, not [:D]

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/06/curt-schillings-demise-from-sports-savior-to-enemy-of-the-taxpayers/

[HansHafen]

Hahahaha, that is unbelievably dumb. I can't believe a state government made a loan like that. Are they complete "IDIOTS"? (Did I use that word properly?!) Hehehehe.

Wow, just wow. I guess we need to go over the basics. What is the proper role of government? What should it do? What should it not do? What is it able to do professionally?

Financing start up gaming companies is absolutely NOT one of the proper roles to be performed by government. Think roads, bridges, schools, police, fire, trash, education (maybe), common defense, etc. Note, I did not mention the arts!

Shit, I'm gonna see if they will underwrite a loan for Matrix Games!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

Hahahaha, that is unbelievably dumb. I can't believe a state government made a loan like that. Are they complete "IDIOTS"? (Did I use that word properly?!) Hehehehe.

Wow, just wow. I guess we need to go over the basics. What is the proper role of government? What should it do? What should it not do? What is it able to do professionally?

Financing start up gaming companies is absolutely NOT one of the proper roles to be performed by government. Think roads, bridges, schools, police, fire, trash, education (maybe), common defense, etc. Note, I did not mention the arts!

Shit, I'm gonna see if they will underwrite a loan for Matrix Games!

Even if they did underwrite a loan for Matrix, Matrix would still have done netplay over the AI [:(] and would go into default with very few sales because of that [:D]

Bo

[Erik Rutins]

Hi 76mm,

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Thanks for your post. While I can't argue with the logic of your proposed path forward, I am very frustrated with the starting point--ie, the state of the game upon release. When I bought the game, I knew that the AI would come later, and that NetPlay "wasn't quite finished". What I didn't realize was that after several months, the dev team would still be focused solely on "functional area fixes," with netplay and AI still over the horizon and no word even about the release of the single-theater scenarios.

I understand, 76mm.

In hindsight, I wish we had been able to delay the release as well. In fairness, there were far more issues than we expected, even though we knew and expected some of them based on the beta team's reports. Our expectation before release was that the non-NetPlay game was very solid and that our main focus would be NetPlay after not being able to finish it before release.

As I've posted before we didn't fully appreciate the size of the rest of that iceberg until it was too late, even though we already had a great respect for the incredible complexity of MWIF. The blame for that does belong squarely on our shoulders and mainly mine. As I've said before, the blame does not belong with the beta team, some of whom were in fact trying to warn us about this probability.

After release, we did try to focus on NetPlay as our first priority, fitting in other high priority fixes around it. Instead of focusing on other areas as wholes, we tried to focus on the most important issues across all areas with NetPlay as the main focus. This continued as our strategy for several months, with quick iterations of beta updates, until it became clear that it was not moving the game forward quickly enough . We had too many other issues still to resolve that would also impact on NetPlay.

The new functional area strategy, which was recommended by the beta team and accepted by the community, is I believe resulting in more noticeable (and valuable to the player) progress and in focusing on one area at a time is allowing Steve to better decipher some of the more complex issues. That same focused approach will carry through to our next pass on NetPlay, which is due to happen once we finish the current Production Planning focus and the upcoming Naval Combat focus.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Bo,

ORIGINAL: bo
Even if they did underwrite a loan for Matrix, Matrix would still have done netplay over the AI [:(] and would go into default with very few sales because of that [:D]

In truth, we did not want a "no AI" release, which I think would be pretty clear from looking at all our other wargames. Steve also did not want a "no AI" release. However, at a certain point we all had to accept "no AI" as a better alternative than "no MWIF".

Regards,

- Erik