What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets

Princessjj1
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:44 pm

What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by Princessjj1 »

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...
Distant Worlds:Universe--FIX IT OR GIVE US REFUNDS.
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...

Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects [:(] Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo
User avatar
paulderynck
Posts: 8356
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Canada

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by paulderynck »

You forgot one. Third is naval movement and combat... then NetPlay.

Edit: Need to amend that. All through the process any really bad or game stopping bugs are also to be worked on, then comes NetPlay.

Paul
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

Ah yes, Paul has reminded me of naval movement and combat then net play, and of course game stopping bugs [:(] hmm shouldn't that have all been resolved before November 7th 2013? Remember Darkstar this is a one man operation, that was Steve's and Matix's choice that is on them not the testers.

And if there weren't dedicated beta testers like Paul and others we might be nowhere's right now as compared to where we, hmmm, oh never mind.

Bo
User avatar
76mm
Posts: 4765
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 4:26 am
Location: Washington, DC

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by 76mm »

*Sigh* Looks like it was a mistake to buy this one...

I could wait for either AI or Netplay, but to wait for so long after release for either one, or even for the single-theater scenarios, is unacceptable.

Note to self: don't buy any more complex board-game conversions from Matrix.
User avatar
wworld7
Posts: 1726
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:57 am
Location: The Nutmeg State

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: bo
ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...

Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects [:(] Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo



Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!
Flipper
Princessjj1
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:44 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by Princessjj1 »

We spent $100, and in return we got screwed.
Distant Worlds:Universe--FIX IT OR GIVE US REFUNDS.
User avatar
juntoalmar
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Valencia
Contact:

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by juntoalmar »

In my opinion, even with the current issues, it's still the best wargame I have ever played. I don't regret a minute.

I'm sorry to hear that you are disappointed guys. Let's hope that project keeps on progress and eventually we have everything we are expecting from the game.

Cheers
(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/
Harold Haralson
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:58 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by Harold Haralson »

I still have my money 8)
monkla
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 6:39 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by monkla »

I don't regret spending my money. I am happy to put money towards gaming companies that are happy to attend to my interests. But I am extremely disappointed at where we are with the game at this time. I'm content with my decision to never buy another Matrix game again. I still contend that a game when released should be fundamentally fully functional. Not bug-ridden, and even now, a substantial period beyond release, and realistically we are years away from a fully working product with AI. That is, if that dream is really one that will even occur at all.
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

In my opinion, even with the current issues, it's still the best wargame I have ever played. I don't regret a minute.

I'm sorry to hear that you are disappointed guys. Let's hope that project keeps on progress and eventually we have everything we are expecting from the game.

Cheers


I did not say that it isn't the greatest war game ever constructed, it surely is IMO, I love the game It looks great, it's just this thing I have about it, I wan't to play it. Hopefully in my lifetime and at my age that was no joke juntoalmar [;)]

Bo
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo
ORIGINAL: Darkstar One

This hasn't even been WORKED on in months...

Hi Darkstar One

One of my favorite subjects [:(] Ahhh the AI. I assume you have been reading the posts by beta and regular posters about the condition of the game in general and the AI. Then again maybe you haven't, if I say anything it is construed as a war against people who prefer net play and they seem to have the ears of Matrix Ceo's on their side.

The powers that be put out their schedule for priorities and the AI is far in the future, first, all of the supply must be fixed, I agree, second the production must be completed, I agree. Third net play must be finished next, I disagree, a huge common sense mistake. I suggested a quick form of the AI for Barbarossa which should not be a big deal for a programmer like Steve to do as I am told that is his forte.

I have been told that the ship has sailed and nothing can change it's course by a power in the Matrix company [no names] How long will it take to clear up supply and production, I have no idea, how long to complete a viable netplay, I have no idea. Net play at its finest could take years, I really don't know. I estimate without any proof of any kind that the AI is a possible 5 years down the road, there are a few more people here that feel that way but most likely will not even go down that road.

And I am so disappointed the way things played out, suggestions abounded the forums 4 and 5 years ago about what might be right for all gamers, not just a few and these were IMO disregarded. And that is why we are here today with these questions, the forums are dead again [same people over and over posting no new blood] Some of the posters speak of confidence but I sense there is none.

I get in trouble because I speak from common sense not knowledge of the game, if they had done an AI on Barbarossa even a small one, there really is not that much there in the way of coding that could take a long time to do. I heard the naysayers over and over about this and they also get tired of me promoting the AI. The last thing I have to say on this is who was right and who was wrong, you make the call Darkstar.

Bo



Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!

Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN [;)]

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE! [:(]

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.

Bo
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

*Sigh* Looks like it was a mistake to buy this one...

I could wait for either AI or Netplay, but to wait for so long after release for either one, or even for the single-theater scenarios, is unacceptable.

Note to self: don't buy any more complex board-game conversions from Matrix.

Ah my good friend from Moscow, hi 76mm, only in timing did you make a mistake, in time, if Steve is given time it will be the greatest, most testing, truly absorbing, all encompossing game ever made for the computer. It may sound like I speak with a forked tongue but in reality I love the game.

I enjoyed working with the beta testers on this one, I liked doing an AAR on Guadalcanal and Fascist tide even if they were not the best that could have been done.
I did not mind giving up my time while working with cad 908 [Rob] on netplay, of course to no avail, and will do so again not for Matrix this time but for the players.

Bo
AlbertN
Posts: 4201
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:44 pm
Location: Italy

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by AlbertN »

To be blunt I am sceptical an AI for such a game can even be worked out at any satisfactory level. The amount of variables are too many and the kind of AI needed is probably one in the style of the military computer seen in the old movie Wargames.

This is a game meant to be played with other human players.
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Cohen

To be blunt I am sceptical an AI for such a game can even be worked out at any satisfactory level. The amount of variables are too many and the kind of AI needed is probably one in the style of the military computer seen in the old movie Wargames.

This is a game meant to be played with other human players.

Agreed Cohen the game was meant to be played by humans no argument there, you have Vassal and someone suggested another way of playing but I forgot who brought that up.

I pesonally am not skeptical about Steve doing a good AI even though I realize he is dealing with 73,000 hexes and not 64 like in chess. But I go back to my original feelings and that is I want to play when I want to, not at the whim of someone else, but thats just me.

Please I am not critcising Steves ability in any way of what he has accomplished in this game, but just maybe this game with all its rules and nuances is not designed for a computer, who knows.

Bo
User avatar
wworld7
Posts: 1726
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:57 am
Location: The Nutmeg State

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: bo
.Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!

Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN [;)]

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE! [:(]

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.


Bo

Bo, I quoted from your post so of course I thought it was you talking. What I bolded was FUNNY no matter who said.

You seem to think there is a choice to made (between Netplay and an AI), there isn't. To the best of my knowledge both are included in the project, and both at some point in time will be finished.

I cannot help but burst out laughing at some of the things you write (which I assume are your words). If these are somebody's else's ideas please give them credit.



Flipper
Numdydar
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by Numdydar »

So Bo how much longer would you want Steve to have worked on this before release? Without getting any payment at all?

While the Beta's are doing a wonderful job there was no way that they could have found the bugs in the code that the people here have done, including myself. So if we take the very small number of people that were betas, added an AI code, then we would have a much greater issue when released as not would the underlying basics of the game have bugs but those would be made even worse by having an AI code that had additional bugs on top of those. If people are complaining now, I cannot begin to imagine what the forums would be like under those conditions. Is your desire for an AI so strong that this is what you would have wanted?

I personally think Matrix did the right thing by releasing when they did. If they had a much larger beta group they may have delayed things as more issues would have been found earlier and so the games release would have been delayed. But only by releasing did they discover these additional issues. So there really was no way they could win under the circumstances.

The things that everyone seems to no understand as well is that a) 90% of the NetPlay code has been coded. All that need to be done once the major issues are resolved is to make any changes based on the fixes to the game. For all we know, these could be occurring as bug fixes occur. So getting Netplay to work is not like it needs to completely be recoded. The second thing is that there also has been a LOT of work done on the AI too. So again this is not something that needs to be started from scratch either.

So rather than complaining, we should realize we will have a game, whose base code will be very close to bug free, so NetPlay will work much better since the underlying code has gone through this process. The same applies to the AI.

For those that have issues with the time between updates, the community here ASKED for Beta versions before they became 'official' patches. Of course as Steve said, this has caused a week or two delay in releasing official patches. So they gave the community what they asked for and now people have issues with delays between patches. [:D]

So again, I bought the game on release, I had a pretty good idea that want has occurred was going to occur, so my expectations were pretty low. And so was my friend who also bought a copy on release. Yet both of us are still happy with our purchase as we did not have any lofty ideas about what the state of the game would be like on release. So when we had issues with NetPlay not working we just moved on until it gets fixed. If it never gets fixed, then so be it. Life moves on. Same with an AI. However, I am 100% confident a working NetPlay will be done as well as an AI. I do not really care as to when. As I do not feel like I am at death's door like Bo seems to [:D]

Just one person's opinion on being glad to have bought on release and convincing a friend to buy it as well. And yes we are still friends lol.
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
ORIGINAL: bo
.Bo,

Thank you for my laugh of the day. ROFL!!!!

Gee flipper your still around and that's a good thing, I know your feelings on that which you wrote those ugly large letters. Some of my information came from another poster who said that this AI thing is Steves forte well ok lets prove it. And if you feel that the AI can wait 3 or more years please explain that to the hundreds if not thousands of computer war gamers seeking that one perfect war game which IMHO they have yet to find. And all the games they bought by mistake that are sitting in the non played for awhile BIN [;)]

I will gladly take anyone on in this subject if you care to, on one condition please take your head out of the sand and use some God given common sense.

PLEASE! [:(]

P.S. Which is better for the players and buyers of this game Flipper, a doable AI from someone who knows how to do an AI or net play, where it SEEMS people here no nothing about how to work it including Matrix and Slitherine.


Bo

Bo, I quoted from your post so of course I thought it was you talking. What I bolded was FUNNY no matter who said.

You seem to think there is a choice to made (between Netplay and an AI), there isn't. To the best of my knowledge both are included in the project, and both at some point in time will be finished.

I cannot help but burst out laughing at some of the things you write (which I assume are your words). If these are somebody's else's ideas please give them credit.



No flipper they are my words and my ideas even though I might get my 13 year old grandson involved as he is twice as smart as me about things. [:(] Thats if I can get him away from WOT.

Not being smart in any way flip but why dont you get involved with MWIF they could use some help with netplay [&o]

Bo
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39324
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi everyone and to the original poster,

I'm sorry you are disappointed at the lack of AI. AI was removed from the release plan years ago and as a result, AI was not promised for the initial release and we have not promised a timeline for when AI will be available. However, we do want to and plan to do an AI. I'll post below what I've written here and there before, including to bo who has been the biggest champion of AI among the beta team.

We are all working every week and doing everything we can to progress with our stated post-release strategy with the functional area fixes. Those are needed for solo, NetPlay and AI games, regardless of mode of play so they take first priority. This path was endorsed by most of our beta team as well as customers when we discussed it earlier.

Our #1 priority is to make sure that everything that was actually part of the release is 100% working. Any features that were not promised for that release (AI) have to wait. If we were to now stop progress on fixing bugs that affect all games and also stop plans to finish fixing NetPlay in order to implement an AI even for the smaller scenarios, I believe most customers would be quite unhappy. We have to first do our best to make sure the game works well in all areas for all the existing owners and then get the AI done.

Steve remains committed to working on the AI. It's probably his favorite area of programming. As long as his health holds up, I believe it will eventually be done.

We agree that a good working AI would be the single best thing we could do for the game, once the rest of the existing issues are resolved. However, if we had gone down that route and waited to release until an AI was finished, because of the limitations we were working under, there would likely have never been a release and no game at all. The only way to have a chance of eventually getting an AI was to separate it out from the original release so that the release could be finished within the available time.

Morally, the right thing for us to do is to make sure that everything we promised works well for all the customers first and only then to add more.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
User avatar
paulderynck
Posts: 8356
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Canada

RE: What the **** is up with the AI Opponent?

Post by paulderynck »

Common sense? - re-read posts 14, 17 & 19.
Paul
Post Reply

Return to “World in Flames”