The future of Distant Worlds - Is DW2 necessary?

[Tormodino]

Disclaimer: I am not flameproof, so please take this for what it is. Opinions and curiosity, with some gentle critiscism.

During my short recent stint here on the forums I have seen a few comments about desired features and changes proposed by players being something to consider for DW2.
Is DW2 an actual thing being worked on, while the massive potential in DW goes largely unexplored?
It's a rare to play a title for so long and to see so little development and experimentation with the base model.

I would still buy the hell out of any expansion that actually improves and expands on the current game. Even after what I find to be a mostly pointless Universe expansion. I gave money to fund the future development of the DW model.
This is an entitled opinion, and does not necessarily reflect reality, but rather my hopes for this title in particular.

All over the forums there are suggestions and wishes for expanded research trees, better building system, UI and AI improvements and heaps of quality of life and immersion changes.

I'd love to hear what the plan is for the future of DW, and why there seems to be so little desire to allow tweaking of and opening up the core functions in the game (examples: AI, private sector). The promised expanded modding capabilites in Universe are not very impressive, to be perfectly honest. It opened up a lot of options, but they were along the lines of creating scenarioes within the current game model.

Btw, I know that this is a small team and that things take time. I'm not on a schedule. I wait patiently for Dwarf Fortress to release their bimillenial update. I can easily do the same here, and even pay for it.
I'm very curious to know if what we currently play is all that DW will ever be, barring balancing, AI improvements and bugfixing.

[joeyeti]

One sentence:

DW1 engine is too old and it was never designed to be mod-friendly from the ground up.

[Bingeling]

It has been said that universe is the end of the current distant worlds. Apart form patches, of course, and they can always change their minds.

Why "scrap it"? With assumptions of DW being like any other program. Lessons are learnt since starting on the game many years ago. Choices made in the past makes some desired changes hard to do. The game is built on "old" technology, giving undesired requirements like windows media player and internet explorer. Developers usually want to scrap any implementation and start over again after 7 years, because their existing stuff is clunky after too many changes and bad choices in the past.

Why not open up core parts of the game? Because they are core, and not flexible. How would you suggest a 7 year old games should make the AI moddable? How do you suggest that a brand new game should do the same? You seem to have a weird understanding of what a game like this probably looks like under the hood. Modding beyond creating "new scenarios"? That is hardly very easy to do for anything but a very simple game. Even the "make your own game" stuff just allows you to make a scenario in their framework.

[ByTheNumbers]

Erik made mention over on the Steam forums that DW2 is a planned title they intend to work on. The way he worded it made it sound that it's not in actual development yet while they still support to the current DW. So DW2 will eventually be made. Honestly, I think it's sometimes better to come out and do a sequel when current source code may make it more of a pain than it's worth to fix and change things. Starting fresh can allow them to do things right.

[Unforeseen]

Other than the added campaign i kinda do [in my honest opinion] think that Universe was more of a large patch update that cost money than it was an expansion.

Expansions are supposed to do just that. "Expand the game", and if your going to have to pay the price of an entire game for it there needs to be an entire games worth of content in the expansion. Compiling the previous expansions into one, adding a little bit of content, and unlocking what seems like a tiny bit of modding capability and selling it for 59.99 is pretty absurd.

I fully support a potential DW2, and i think there is alot of room to improve upon the previous game. Especially in the AI and Diplomacy departments. But i think that expansions should be released as a stand alone; and they should be priced based on what they are, relative to the original game.

[Nanaki]

The thing about a DW2 is that, it allows you to make some very massive changes but that is both a curse and a blessing. There are a huge number of excellent games out there that had mediocre or downright terrible sequel, Star Wolves, STALKER, Homeworld, Deus Ex. Infact, one of the worst debacles in the history of 4X gaming came from a sequel to a beloved franchise, Master of Orion 3.

The moral of the story is that making a sequel as opposed to an expansion enables you to change a whole lot, but not every change may not be for the better. Each change made needs to be thought about, and even though a lot of old 'mistakes' might be fixed, new mistakes will be made to take their place.

ORIGINAL: Unforeseen

Other than the added campaign i kinda do [in my honest opinion] think that Universe was more of a large patch update that cost money than it was an expansion.

I think Universe was mainly aimed towards people whom have never heard of or played Distant Worlds, as previously the price of the vanilla game + all expansions was nothing short of astronomical (well over $100). While it may not be a massive improvement to those whom already owned the base game, it dropped the price of entry enough for new people whom otherwise never heard of DW until recently to buy the game.

[Tormodino]

@joeyeti and Bingeling: If what you are saying is true, that is more than fair. However, I do not have a weird understanding of how this works. I have a very limited understanding of how it works.
Finding out the reasons why old parts of the code can not be updated to be less inflexible, as part of paid expansions if necessary, is a major part of why I asked about this.

[fenrislokison]

Personnally, i'm not this eager for modding ability.

IMHO, mods are divided in 3:
- numerous small mods each used by a handful of people
- a handful of great mods used by a bit more of people
- the vast majority of uncompleted, unbalanced and buggy mods
And even for great mods, there is usually only a minority of players who use them.

Great games are great before being moddable and they usually don't get this much greater by using mods. And poor games or ok games never become great because of mods.
Some may disagree with me but that's my opinion for games like civ5, skyrim, the small shadowrun game, galciv 2 and i don't remember how much more.
The only mod i ever remember that renewed the game for me was the Floris mod for Mount & Blade Warband.

So if DW2 is to be born, i don't want it because of modding.

I think DW2 must be developped because as great as DW1 is, it still is getting old. I'm playing it for several years now. I still enjoy it a lot, but i don't play it anymore for its concepts or deepness or whatever, i play it because when i want to play a good game, i think "aah yes, DW is very nice, i want to try to feel like it was like when i first played".
I'm starting to play DW because of nostalgia, like i'm still playing sometimes Moo2.
And nostalgia is also the reason why I bought Universe: because it's one of my favorite games for several years now. I buy Rammstein albums the same way: i don't know what there is inside but it doesn't matter because it's my favorite band.

But even if i'm the first one to recommend it to a new player, it still doesn't change the fact that DW is getting old and, for me, Universe feels more like a Last Stand for a declining game.

I don't mean that DW is dead, this forum proves all days that it is not. It is a fine old geezer, telling the same tales from the past, but no more a fresh young man.

So DW2 project must be started now, before the decline of DW1 become too obvious and the players get tired of it.
I'd like it to be done by the same people for the core mechanics: economy, research and empire management but i'd also think they could benefit from new guys when it comes to user interface, graphics and ergonomy.
I know graphics aren't really the main point of this type of game, but still it counts. Fleet battles in Sins of a Solar Empire where great for example.
And being a small team doesn't prevent to achieve nice graphics, as in Lords of the Black Sun or the Mandate, both currently in development.

I don't really think of any specific part of the game i want to be implemented, but i would like the mechanics not to be too close to those of DW1. Galciv 3 seems to take that path and looks like it will be galciv 2 improved. I fear i'll be bored rapidly because i won't have to learn the game, i'll just have to start the game of hard or higher, learn the new UI, new artefacts and that's it, game beaten.

I don't think however that DW2 would benefit from an improved story mode. The "sandbox" way of playing is better for a 4X game IMHO.

I don't think it should be done to handle galaxy of 10 000 stars or whatever, the scale of the game is fine as it is. Anymore would be overkill and would only appeal to a handful of players.

[Max 86]

IMHO, this game is a classic and I will play this for a long time. My biggest concern is that it becomes unplayable after updates to PC operating systems in the future. It would be sad to let this game fade away because of incompatibility with future PCs.

Here at Matrix already on other forums players clamor for old games to be remade with updated engines because, like DWU, they are classics too and many fans miss playing them. Steel Panthers jumps to the front of my list there, but there are others.

So I see DW2 as being for Windows 9, 10, 11, etc...whatever Billy G. and his crew at Microsoft throw at us in the future.

[ASHBERY76]

There is still a lot of room for DW1 to improve,better diplomacy,senate,more space monsters,events,etc.

Better graphics is the only reason to do DW2 at this point.

[Mansen]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Better graphics is the only reason to do DW2 at this point.

An engine that handles large numbers of units on screen.
An engine that doesn't perform OOS combat differently than on screen.
An engine that is much more open to modding.

I'd say there are plenty of reasons for a new game. The time might not be ripe for it right now, but "graphics" is far from the only improvement. 2D sprites can go a long way. Higher resolution files and we'd have an entirely different visual side.

[Cauldyth]

I would love to see more DW expansions.

[Osito]

How long will it take to get DW2 to the state that DW is currently in? I suspect quite a long time.

I would like to see a DW2, but I think it is so far away that I'd rather see some more DW first. And remember: some of us are old enough that we might not live to see DW2

Osito

[ParagonExile]

I've been plying only for a few weeks now with the release of universe (couldn't afford earlier iterations! $100+!) and this is easily one of the best 4X games ever made. That being said, I can tell even with my modest technical knowledge that Distant Worlds is getting "Too big for its shoes"; the game's potential is outstripping its technical limitations and it suffers from that in my opinion.

A new game, made with a new/updated engine would clear up many issues and allow things we can't do currently; a release 3-4 years from now would be great.

[Fenrisfil]

I think there are good reasons to do a sequel. Tweaking here and there is all well and good, but to make a significant step up from the current game would require adjusting and replacing fundamental game code, which would be extremely time consuming and simply wouldn't recoup itself financially given it would essentially be a DLC for an increasingly old title. Secondly once you get to making radical changes to the game, it basically becomes a new game anyway, so as well as wasting the great marketing opportunity that a new game provides you'd potentially also alienate current fans.

Now of course there are a few specific things that they could have opened up, sure. But that doesn't negate the need for a sequel. I very much doubt they could have done the item on the top of my wish list, which is to provide for multi-star systems. Related to that would be planets that orbit two stars centre of gravity (mixed in with single star orbits) and the whole idea of the stars orbiting each other around that central point. You can see why that isn't an easy thing to just shove in.

Second on my wish list would be a complete reworking of population, planet habitability and colonisation, allowing proper planetary terraforming, dome colonies, populations working and paying tax on large space stations and stuff like that. Installations and troops on worlds that aren't yet colonies would be part of that. All of that is unlikely to be workable until a sequel. So from my point of view, DW2 is definitely necessary!

[Gregorovitch55]

For me, coming to DW for the first time recently, it is obvious that it is an extremely good space 4X game and i have absolutely no desire to play any other of my space 4X games for the foreseeable. Equally, it is obvious to me that many aspects of the game, particularly the UI, are way below par compared to the quality of the game play and of course the graphics are a decade behind the times.

In this genre, because the sandbox game is far more important than the story lines, to make a sequel that people won't deride as a blatant cash grab you have to make significant improvements in game play and aesthetics plus some fresh ideas and content that are well thought out, thoroughly in keeping with the original's ethos and replace ideas that in the previous game were generally considered the weakest.

The best way to captivate and satisfy the fans IMO is to make a complex game even more complex but at the same time make it easier to handle the complexity by improving the way information is presented to the player and providing new tools to make executing decisions easier. And by making it so gorgeous it makes you want to fire it up just to look at it. This is basically what Paradox do with successive iterations of Vikki, CK, EU and HoI and nobody is complaining. Each new release is devoured in a frenzy by existing fans and brings in a whole new set of players because they are pretty much always simply better than the last one.

DW is ripe for this IMO. There are only two things that can go wrong:

1. The game is dumbed down in a misguided pitch for the mass market.
2. The scope of the sequel is beyond the resources of the dev to deliver

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: Fenrisfil

Second on my wish list would be a complete reworking of population, planet habitability and colonisation, allowing proper planetary terraforming, dome colonies, populations working and paying tax on large space stations and stuff like that. Installations and troops on worlds that aren't yet colonies would be part of that. All of that is unlikely to be workable until a sequel. So from my point of view, DW2 is definitely necessary!

Those could be worked into DW1 pretty easily but sequel or not does not mean that is the designers desire for DW2.Ultimately we know nothing about the plan for DW2 apart from said graphics.It could be simplified for the new steam crowd.

[Nanaki]

The thing is, I feel that DW should probably be used as a testbed for gameplay ideas/changes that do not require a complete overhaul. As I said in my previous post, sometimes changes that sound or look good on paper do not work out when actually tested, and it would likely be much better to find out sooner (in DW1) rather than later during DW2's development after considerable expense. Especially since the more changes you do to a core game, the more unpredictable the final result will be.

ORIGINAL: Fenrisfil

Second on my wish list would be a complete reworking of population, planet habitability and colonisation, allowing proper planetary terraforming, dome colonies, populations working and paying tax on large space stations and stuff like that. Installations and troops on worlds that aren't yet colonies would be part of that. All of that is unlikely to be workable until a sequel. So from my point of view, DW2 is definitely necessary!

Thing is, there are a few things here I do not necessarily agree with... Terraforming is one of the few things I dislike, simply because of the inevitability of a race eventually converting all planets into environments of its liking. Imagine an entire system full of nothing but continental planets, or an entire system full of nothing but volcanic planets, infact, these very situations happened during my playthrough of Hegemonia: Legions of Iron. Simply put, it takes character out of colonies and turns them into a mass-produced paradises for the race in question.

[Tormodino]

But these things are exactly what you talk about, Nanaki. Terraforming does not have to be implemented the way you fear. There are many ways to go about making colonies and space habitation interesting and rewarding without leading to gaia-everywhere syndrome.

The tendency to think that any change or new feature has to be an extreme one frequently limit what people think is possible or desireable.

[pkoko]

I just bought DW-U and I feel it is a great 4X game. I feel that other than improved diplomacy, UI improvements, and couple of balance changes; the game is excellent as is. You can always improve something and the cycle never ends. Therefore, I think it is time to start a new game ASAP. The new game can add truly revolutionary features like new unit types, new planet types, unique research trees, etc.