Most one sided Fletcher Fight ever?

[topeverest]

I would appreciate some advice here what sequence actually occurred that caused such a one sided attack. American
DD force ordered to bombard Wake, and the Empire sent defenders. Nominally, the American force was inferior. By
My read, the empire force was docked for replenishment and attempts to get underway. but the empire crosses the T
and gets no damage on the American fleet. Looks like the American torpedo attack was massively successful early on.

Why didn't the empire get more damage on the allied fleet? I've never seen such one sided result.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 07, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Wake Island at 136,98, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CL Kashii, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Kiyoshimo, Shell hits 37, and is sunk
DD Shinonome, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Usugumo, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Isonami, Shell hits 26, and is sunk
DD Shirayuki, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Asagiri, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
DD Akebono, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
DD Chugao #1, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Franks, Shell hits 1
DD Heermann
DD Hoel
DD Kidd, Shell hits 1
DD Kimberly
DD Murray, Shell hits 1
DD Sigourney
DD Welles

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF begins to get underway
Improved night sighting under 71% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 71% moonlight: 8,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese radar detects Allied task force at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 10,000 yards
Kojima, Hideo crosses the 'T'
DD Chugao #1 engages DD Sigourney at 10,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Uranami at 10,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Shirayuki at 10,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Usugumo at 10,000 yards
DD Shinonome engages DD Sigourney at 10,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Kimberly at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Welles at 8,000 yards
Massive explosion on DD Shinonome
DD Shinonome engages DD Sigourney at 8,000 yards
DD Akebono engages DD Welles at 8,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Shirayuki at 8,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Kidd at 8,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Heermann at 8,000 yards
DD Shinonome sunk by DD Heermann at 8,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Usugumo at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
DD Chugao #1 engages DD Welles at 7,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Chugao #1 at 7,000 yards
DD Uranami sunk by DD Murray at 7,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Sigourney at 7,000 yards
DD Usugumo sunk by DD Hoel at 7,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Isonami at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
CL Kashii engages DD Heermann at 5,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Sigourney at 5,000 yards
DD Murray engages DD Isonami at 5,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Isonami at 5,000 yards
DD Shirayuki sunk by DD Heermann at 5,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Hoel at 5,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Kiyoshimo at 5,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Franks at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Isonami at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami sunk by DD Sigourney at 2,000 yards
DD Akebono engages DD Welles at 2,000 yards
DD Akebono engages DD Kimberly at 2,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Welles at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
CL Kashii engages DD Welles at 3,000 yards
DD Chugao #1 sunk by DD Kimberly at 3,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Murray at 3,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Murray at 3,000 yards
DD Franks engages DD Kiyoshimo at 3,000 yards
DD Hoel engages DD Asagiri at 3,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Heermann at 3,000 yards
Kojima, Hideo orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Welles at 2,000 yards
DD Akebono engages DD Sigourney at 2,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Asagiri at 2,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Kiyoshimo at 2,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Hoel at 2,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Asagiri at 2,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Franks at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
CL Kashii engages DD Murray at 4,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Akebono at 4,000 yards
DD Asagiri engages DD Murray at 4,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Asagiri at 4,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Asagiri at 4,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Asagiri at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Kiyoshimo at 5,000 yards
DD Murray engages DD Kiyoshimo at 5,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Kiyoshimo at 5,000 yards
DD Kidd engages DD Akebono at 5,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Akebono at 5,000 yards
DD Akebono engages DD Franks at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CL Kashii sunk by DD Franks at 6,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Kiyoshimo at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Murray at 6,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Kiyoshimo at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Hoel at 6,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Kiyoshimo at 6,000 yards
DD Franks engages DD Kiyoshimo at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Akebono at 8,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Asagiri at 8,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Heermann at 8,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Asagiri at 8,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Akebono at 8,000 yards
DD Murray engages DD Kiyoshimo at 8,000 yards
DD Kimberly engages DD Kiyoshimo at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Akebono sunk by DD Sigourney at 9,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Kidd at 9,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Kiyoshimo at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Welles at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Heermann at 6,000 yards
DD Franks engages DD Kiyoshimo at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Heermann engages DD Kiyoshimo at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Kiyoshimo at 9,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo engages DD Murray at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Franks engages DD Kiyoshimo at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
DD Welles engages DD Kiyoshimo at 8,000 yards
DD Sigourney engages DD Kiyoshimo at 8,000 yards
DD Kiyoshimo sunk by DD Franks at 8,000 yards
Combat ends with last Japanese ship sunk...

[mind_messing]

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF begins to get underway

Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

[crsutton]

Your guess is as good as mine. If you just sent your TF in why was it docked, or was it? That I think is why you got crushed. As far as I have seen whenever you see that "TF is attempting to get underway" message then nothing but bad news is going to follow. That plus you took massive damage on one ship during the first round which if the ship did not separate would have slowed the TF down. But that is speculation on my behalf as I do not know (does anyone) how the combat model exactly works. Yes, a docked TF plus a combination of unfavorable digital events. It is what I love about the game. Bad luck happens and no matter what you can never expect victory. The game would be dull if it were any other way. I "do" feel your pain though.

Oct 7 44, both sides have radar but Allied radar is much better, Allies now have working torpedoes, Allied crew experience is excellent after 1/44, fletchers have armor (not that it mattered here) and better more powerful guns with I think a faster rate of fire. This outcome could have very well been similar in a real life encounter in 10/44.

I will say that in five years of constant playing, I have never seen either side pull off a more successful torpedo attack.

[EHansen]

Isn't CL Kashii a slow training cruiser? If so, it would have slowed the whole TF down.

[btd64]

I concur with the above. They could not get out of there own way and got hammered for it. GP

[dcpollay]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF begins to get underway

Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF begins to get underway

Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

I have found "crossing the T" to be more of a disadvantage in this game than an advantage.

Nine times out of ten when I cross the tee only my lead ship fires while getting fired on in return by the entire enemy force.

Crossing the T seems to be bass ackwards in this game.

Another disadvantage........crossing the T presents broadsides to torpedo attacks.

[Dili]

The Fletchers guns are overpowered.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF begins to get underway

Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

+1

ORIGINAL: EHansen

Isn't CL Kashii a slow training cruiser? If so, it would have slowed the whole TF down.

And another +1

[offenseman]

1. Ships at anchor
2. Kashii slowing down all the DDs to 18 kts
3. Fletchers are stronger than most IJN CLs.
4. Night engagement with good USN radar

Essentially you have 8 Light Cruisers against a training cruiser and 9 DDs, all of whom started at a dead stop and were limited to 18 kts. Perhaps the IJN commander on the scene also had some high aggression which did not allow them to try to run away as quickly, and of course when it tried to run, it could go no faster than 18 kt.

I find that to be a fair result. IMHO

[Gaspote]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

I have found "crossing the T" to be more of a disadvantage in this game than an advantage.

Nine times out of ten when I cross the tee only my lead ship fires while getting fired on in return by the entire enemy force.

Crossing the T seems to be bass ackwards in this game.

Another disadvantage........crossing the T presents broadsides to torpedo attacks.

You not supposed to get an advantage when crossing the T. It's the worst case in naval battle except if you are Admiral Nelson and get the wind.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

You not supposed to get an advantage when crossing the T. It's the worst case in naval battle except if you are Admiral Nelson and get the wind.

I beg to differ. That was the goal of any naval force to achieve during the time period. You bring your full firepower to bear on the enemy who can only respond with fire from the bow. Crossing the T should be a major tactical advantage in combat. As to your Nelson comment, getting the weather gage was always a tactical advantage during the period, but every Captain tried to rake (cross the T) of an enemy ship's bow or stern if given the opportunity to do so.

[Paladin1dcs]

As others have said, don't think of this as 8 Allied DDs versus a IJN CL/DD task force. Fletchers are really more like small CLs than the DDs you're used too seeing. Just be glad that the Allied force didn't have some true CLs like the Brooklyns or Clevelands.

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard




The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

I have found "crossing the T" to be more of a disadvantage in this game than an advantage.

Nine times out of ten when I cross the tee only my lead ship fires while getting fired on in return by the entire enemy force.

Crossing the T seems to be bass ackwards in this game.

Another disadvantage........crossing the T presents broadsides to torpedo attacks.

You not supposed to get an advantage when crossing the T. It's the worst case in naval battle except if you are Admiral Nelson and get the wind.

It all depend on formation. In "classical" battle crossing the T should be only good thing.
You are able to fire all Your guns in broadside volley while enemy is forced to use only forward guns and very often ship in front are blocking others ships in formation to even use forward guns or fire torpedoes

Disadvantage of crossing the T in WW2 standards is that You are very expose to TT attack. All Your ships are big targets. Especially when moving in slow 18kn formation

So crossing the T should give some bonus to gun fire ratio and reduce chance of torpedo hit to side that cross T. Other side should have disadvantage in gun fire ratio and numbers of TT fired, but TTs should have better chance of hitting.

I could be wrong in all what i write so correct me


As for battle result.
Fletcher are the same on sea war what P-47 is in air war. You can expect only worst when You meet them

[SqzMyLemon]

Other than submarines, PT boats and Motor Torpedo boats I don't know of too many warships that had bow facing torpedo launchers? How can a force that has their T crossed even bring their torpedoes to bear?

As to the combat. I think the fact the Japanese crossed the T is simply the combat engine stating the orientation of the Japanese force. I agree with all the other comments. Ships were not underway (and full broadside exposed) which negates crossing the T as the Japanese force was not moving and the CL would have killed the speed of the Japanese DD's anyway. The Fletchers were at a huge tactical advantage and it shows in the results.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Right there. The Japanese ships were tied up and sitting ducks when the Allies showed up.

The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

I have found "crossing the T" to be more of a disadvantage in this game than an advantage.

Nine times out of ten when I cross the tee only my lead ship fires while getting fired on in return by the entire enemy force.

Crossing the T seems to be bass ackwards in this game.

Another disadvantage........crossing the T presents broadsides to torpedo attacks.

I am glad I am not the only one that thinks the crossing the T is not working right.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard




The odd part of that is that the Japanese crossed the T. That seems to indicate some kind of advantage, not being "sitting ducks."

I have found "crossing the T" to be more of a disadvantage in this game than an advantage.

Nine times out of ten when I cross the tee only my lead ship fires while getting fired on in return by the entire enemy force.

Crossing the T seems to be bass ackwards in this game.

Another disadvantage........crossing the T presents broadsides to torpedo attacks.

I am glad I am not the only one that thinks the crossing the T is not working right.

I think it's OK. It's not a supreme advantage, but it does seem to limit things - such as only Front facing weapons firing, at least at the beginning of the engagement. In short engagements where the T has been crossed, I've checked the ships that "got crossed" afterwards - the LS/RS/R/C guns have less ammo expenditure, meaning they fired less. This is anecdotal, but crossing the T can't be any worse than simply meeting each others' battle lines.

It also says to me that the TF commander has an edge on his opponent in the Naval skill department, which brings general advantages throughout the fight.

[topeverest]

Thanks for the help guys. Not knowing the combat secret sauce, I also assume the kiss of death was the TF deciding to refuel and being caught cold. I need to be sure to keep refuel disabled in the future.

What strikes me so odd is that there were almost no hits on allied ships. I would have expected several more even in a shellacking.

[Lowpe]

Don't use training cruisers in surface groups in 44!

You can use them to help escort cargo ships and tankers...

[crsutton]

Yes, I overlooked the slow cruiser which slowed the TFs maximum speed to 18 knots. That in itself was a serious gaffe. Almost halved the speed of the TF. Oh well. It is not like we all have not done something just as painful.[;)]