Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Command Ops: Battles From The Bulge takes the highly acclaimed Airborne Assault engine back to the West Front for the crucial engagements during the Ardennes Offensive. Test your command skills in the fiery crucible of Airborne Assault’s “pausable continuous time” uber-realistic game engine. It's up to you to develop the strategy, issue the orders, set the pace, and try to win the laurels of victory in the cold, shadowy Ardennes.
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich brings us to the setting of one of the most epic and controversial battles of World War II: Operation Market-Garden, covering every major engagement along Hell’s Highway, from the surprise capture of Joe’s Bridge by the Irish Guards a week before the offensive to the final battles on “The Island” south of Arnhem.

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Arjuna
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Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Arjuna »

Hi all,

I have made some changes to address the issue of rump units not disbanding and some other minor fixes. I can put out another beta build or go straight to a final patch build (which would include converting all data packs). Which would you prefer?

Let me know by tomorrow morning Australian Eastern Standard Time (UTC +10). Thanks.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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dazkaz15
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

I think I may have found a game breaking bug for longer scenarios, that you may want to look into first on your test version.
Its to do with resupply again.

The Corps and Divisional bases are pushing all the supply down to the Regiment bases, and not holding any back for units attached to Division.
Not just ammo but more importantly basics. So the Regiment bases are full, but Corps and Division completely empty.
This is version 4.6.276. I didn't want to update to the latest in case it messed up my current game. I don't know if you have already noticed and fixed this yet?

I am starting to see this in my Greyhound Dash game, and have noticed it before in others.
I was going to wait until I was further into the game so that I could monitor it better, and have more conclusive evidence.
Unfortunately I won't be back home for 2 weeks so cant send you a save. Maybe someone else can help out?

What you are looking for is units directly attached to Division,completely running out of basics, and therefore getting un-recoverably fatigued, and unable to move, but Regimental bases still being full.
You will probably need to test for it on a long scenario.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Arjuna »

Can you please provide a save, where this happens - preferably one after you notice the Div troops not getting supplied and one before the most recent resupply, which occur at 0600 or 1800 each day.
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Phoenix100
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

Daz is away for 2 weeks, Dave, so I guess he won't be able to get you a save (as he said)in time for your decision.

However. I quickly put together a tiny 7 day scenario to test his issue and it was very easy to replicate, I think. I put a Div, plus Div base and Regiment plus reg base on the Manhay map, eliminated nearly all the Allied opposition (so there's no fighting) and just ran it to see how basics were supplied between the two bases and their respective units. Gave a selection of units to both HQs, but more to the Div base. The subordinate base (the regiment) is always at full supply, as are its units. The Div base is always running out, as are its units after about 2 days of consumption.

I can send you the scenario and 2 saves if you wish, Dave.

Peter
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dazkaz15
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

Thanks Peter [:)]

Yeah as I said in my AAR thread, I only have dialup access on the ipad for 2 weeks, and not access to the game unfortunately [:(]
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Shadak »

Does apple have any RDP apps? I use RDP on my android to connect home and its able to run and play Command Ops no problem.
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simovitch
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by simovitch »

I recall there was a change in the supply code that reduced the amount of basics being delivered to Bases for their own supply uses. The reason was to keep the subordinate front line units from running out of food and water while the rear area troops (bases) were usually swimming in it.

We mainly observed this problem in the long, purely airborne scenarios (like Maleme) where little or no vehicular transport is available and overall it really helps there. I'll see if I can observe what happens in the longer scenarios where vehicular transport is more available. Sounds like the bases might be getting drained too fast.
simovitch

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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Arjuna »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Daz is away for 2 weeks, Dave, so I guess he won't be able to get you a save (as he said)in time for your decision.

However. I quickly put together a tiny 7 day scenario to test his issue and it was very easy to replicate, I think. I put a Div, plus Div base and Regiment plus reg base on the Manhay map, eliminated nearly all the Allied opposition (so there's no fighting) and just ran it to see how basics were supplied between the two bases and their respective units. Gave a selection of units to both HQs, but more to the Div base. The subordinate base (the regiment) is always at full supply, as are its units. The Div base is always running out, as are its units after about 2 days of consumption.

I can send you the scenario and 2 saves if you wish, Dave.

Peter
Yes please Peter.

BTW Peter I started my fourth Dave Warner novel.[:)]
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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Phoenix100
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

Did you hear from Phil, yet, Dave?

You write too quick! It's galling, for a mere plodder like me. In the last 3 months I managed to produce about 6,000 words....

Have sent scenario and saves to illustrate Daz's point. I recall the issue that Simovitch mentions very well in the big Maas-Rhine scenario, for example - frontline troops dying, Divisional bases full of grub, so we wouldn't want to return to that. But it may be it's gone too far, somehow, as Richard says.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by simovitch »

It may be that we simply need to monitor individual unit supply more closely and use those max-min toggles more.[:)]
simovitch

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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

Maybe you're right, Richard. I just refined my test scenario, by limiting supply to 1 SEP, and ran it again.

See the pic below. The corner boxes indicate basic supply.

Basically I have a large armoured/arty/engineer group (on the left) commanded by Division (with a div base) and (on the right, higher up)an Infantry group commanded by Regiment (with a base). There are no Allied enemies to fight. I start the scenario and run it full speed for its 7 day duration. So all that is getting used, really, is basic supply. If I click on the bases and examine their stockpiles at the end of 7 days then the regimental base is stuffed full of supplies and Divisional base is not. BUT, this doesn't seem really to have affected the units much. As the corner boxes indicate, they're roughly on the same levels of basic supply. So I would conclude that there isn't much of an issue revealed by this little test, and that Daz must mean something else. [:)] Maybe if the units were fighting and behaving normally then we might get to the issue Daz means. Not sure.


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dazkaz15
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

Dave do you still have that save I sent you from the evening of D1 to do with the TF Hogan issue in my Greyhound Dash AAR?
If you run the game fast speed from there until the current time, the morning of D3 you should see all the units drawing from Div base starting to struggle with basics, and all the units drawing from Regiment still bright yellow, and Div and Corps bases completely empty.
There is only one SEP to Corps resupply event in this scenario in the evening about 21:00. As time goes on I can only see this problem getting worse. There are 8 days in this scenario, so I can really see it being a problem later.

You can also see it in the moral as it is already starting to drop for no other reason than I can fathom, other than bad basics levels.

Simovitch I don't think the max min toggles would help much here as the flow of supply is one way as far as I know?
What I mean by that is it will not flow back from Regiment to Division once it has been pushed forward, and as there is nothing in Division to draw on, I can't see that will help. Correct me if I'm wrong on this?
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: simovitch

It may be that we simply need to monitor individual unit supply more closely and use those max-min toggles more.[:)]

"Manage" combat supply? [;)]

Didn't know that was part of a commander's responsibility.
Take care,

jim
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

I'm sure it's not a case of Daz allowing certain units to get trashed and use all their ammo. He's not daft. I'm sure Dave will take it seriously. I'm not sure why my test didn't replicate the issue though. Obviously I'm missing a variable.

Should I set something different, Daz? I placed an armoured/arty group (1,200 mouths) under Divisional Command and an Infantry group (500 mouths) under Regimental command. There was a Regimental base and a Divisional base, both drawing from the same SEP, the regimental base via the Divisional base. I let it run for 6 days to consume basics (no fighting)and though - as I said - at the end the Regimental base was chock full of supplies (everything 100%) and the Divisional base had hardly any, the units all had about the same level of basics, relative to their sizes, I think.

EDIT: I just let it run again, but altered so as to make roughly the same number of mouths to feed from each base. The units drawing from the Divisional base ended up with about one quarter the supply of the units drawing from the Regimental base and their morale was at about 80% whereas the regimental units morale was fine (after no fighting at all, remember). So there is certainly a difference there. But the Divisional units never run out of supply and I wonder if I were to apportion more to them via the buttons whether that would solve the difference, if I needed it solved. In which case, of course, players should know that there exists a bias towards keeping the regimental base and units in supply at the expense of the divisional base and units (exactly as Daz has suggested) so that they can play accordingly. But since all my units are just sitting there and no one needs more supply than others I would think that Daz has a point here and that the balance needs tweaking, no?
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

It has nothing to do with using ammo wisely mate, although that is also being affected by this I think, and is what has caused me a bit of concern in other scenarios. I have mentioned it before but never did testing for it or submitted it as a bug report because I never had proof.
It could have easily been me just being over zealous with the ammo available.
Its basics that are the main concern here, and noticing that has helped to trap this potential bug, because of course you can't be over zealous with the use of basics.

One of the scenario specifics of the scenario in question "Greyhound Dash" is that only 20% of standard supply is coming though the SEP, and only one night delivery per 24 hour period, with only one SEP available, so very little supply is available in the scenario as per design.
This is the point in the Ardennes offensive where supply was starting to run very short for the Axis forces, compounded by the weather of course.
This might be the factor you are missing in your testing.

The problem is Corps, and Division bases are not rationing out what's available, they are sending it all forward, and reserving nothing for the units attached to Division. As this is a one way flow, there is no way to bring it back to Division for re-allocation to divisional assets, which in this cscenario is some very important tank destroyers, engineers and artillery.

I have said it before and I say it again, supply is such an important factor in winning a long battle, it really needs to have more controllable features for advance players, as well as an auto mode for casual play.
Food for thought for future releases.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

If you have time Peter try editing the Greyhound Dash scenario in the scenario maker, by deleting all the enemy units then running it on max speed until the morning of day 3, see if that gets the results I have been seeing?
You may need to leave a few enemy units on the map of the scenario will not work at all I think?
Thanks for all your help with this mate, its very much appreciated [;)]
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by navwarcol »

Daz, do your units draw supply if you attach them to lower levels rather than the division or corps?
I usually do this just prior to an attack, then reattach afterwards, which perhaps could be why I have never seen this issue. I also do not have access to test this now, but I am thinking more and more that this is the case, as I always run long, week+ length scenarios.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

Will do that when I get the chance, Daz, and let you know. probably tomorrow now. Wednesdays I don't have much time.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by dazkaz15 »

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Daz, do your units draw supply if you attach them to lower levels rather than the division or corps?
I usually do this just prior to an attack, then reattach afterwards, which perhaps could be why I have never seen this issue. I also do not have access to test this now, but I am thinking more and more that this is the case, as I always run long, week+ length scenarios.
It shouldn't make any difference mate.

The units will still draw from their organic supply base, even if they are temporarily attached to other units via the Player Structure OB.
I think the only time they will draw form another base is if their organic base is destroyed, or the route is blocked for an extended period, when I think they can then draw from a higher echelon base.

If I remember right Dave said that the bases don't only represent supply they also represent field repair facilities, specialists, and specialised equipment, so for instance you couldn't have an Panzer Coy drawing from an infantry regiment base, because they just wouldn't have the required equipment to support them.
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RE: Another Beta Build or Final Patch

Post by Phoenix100 »

Set up Greyhoud Dash as suggested, Daz. See pic below showing detail from Day 8. As you can see, some units are in basic supply and some are not. But some that are not are drawing from the regimental base. So though there appears to be an uneven supply (perhaps caused by rationing choices?) there doesn't seem to be a pattern of it originating in a preference for Regimental bases. At least, running GD like you suggested doesn't show that.

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