Refund

Take command of air and naval assets from post-WW2 to the near future in tactical and operational scale, complete with historical and hypothetical scenarios and an integrated scenario editor.

Moderator: MOD_Command

Silverhawk85
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:09 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Silverhawk85 »

Yeah maybe I also did something wrong. That's why I had to restart the tutorial a few times.

Maybe a option which highlights the buttons you have to click and disables all other buttons would be useful.

Regarding the 40/72 button, I think the problem is that it was not explained what the numbers stand for. I thought it is just a button named 72/72 like the 1/3 checkbox. I found it out afterwards what these numbers mean.

Just wanted to say that some parts of the tutorial were confusing to me.
thewood1
Posts: 9106
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: Boston

RE: Refund

Post by thewood1 »

Again from the manual...

Aircraft Button: Shows
the number of available
aircraft and total
aircraft in the selected
unit or selected group.
Clicking the button launches the Air Ops dialog which is used to
manage hosted aircraft.

Page 25

I really and truly believe that like with any game, having the manual open and maybe having read it before starting the tutorial helps. I mean, just a basic search turns up the information needed while running the tutorial. I don't think anyone expects you to memorize the manual, but before stating something about the tutorial not matching the scenario, try a simple search. That has been my point all along. Don't make other people do the work for you.
Casinn
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:12 am

RE: Refund

Post by Casinn »

That tutorial has been changed up some, the marker (actual location) airfield used to be the only one, but was so close that you were immediately in combat with little to no chance to form up planes/read the directions, etc. So per requests from people they added a new one farther back.

I think the 42/72 thing is also from changes to way airfields work. Initially all 72 planes were ready. so it was 72/72.

I'm sure they really appreciate any input from new players on what can improve those tutorials, since those of us playing for months forget what a new player may see as confusing.
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

CMANO is (thankfully) not for everyone. It takes significant commitment and interest in the subject to get into this game. Even in my group of tabletop wargamer friends very few would even consider touching it. This is why I like it. Realism over user-friendliness and over-simplification. There are plenty of mainstream games for those that can't handle it.

I also take any criticism regarding crashes from someone trying to play the game on a Mac emulator as highly suspect and unfair. Nobody says the game does not occasionally crash, but my personal experience is of less than a crash every 20-25 hours of play, which is pretty good for a game that is being actively improved constantly (and I would not have it any other way). But I am a computer engineer with a decent gaming rig free of crapware.

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.
User avatar
Randomizer
Posts: 1497
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:31 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Randomizer »

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.
This actually lands on the deck of the scenario authors and has nothing to do with CMANO itself. Two points if I may;

1. All scenario authors (and the other CMNAO content providers) are giving their time and efforts for free. Writing and testing an interesting scenario is often time consuming and there will be occasions where the briefings might lag behind changes as the scenario evolves. Scenario writing in my experience is almost never a linear process and it is incredibly easy to have missed something once the author finally thinks "Finished!". In truth I doubt that many scenario authors ever consider their work entirely complete or better than satisfactory. I suspect that if you made the effort to provide the scenario author with feedback regarding any ambiguity or shortcoming in the scenario text or victory conditions they would gratefully respond with an update or a rationale for what was uploaded.

2. There will and indeed should be scenarios where vague briefings and nebulous victory conditions are intentional. The number of military operations where the commander has gone into action knowing beforehand "I need to sink-X, shoot down-Y number of A/C and require ships A, B and C at point-Z for Q-time" is for any practical purposes so close to zero as to be irrelevant. If you get a clear mission statement, consider yourself lucky. CMANO allows scenario authors to throw all sorts of surprises into the mix in a fashion that can mirror the real world quite nicely.

If you have any issues with any community scenario, post or PM the author with your thoughts and suggestions for improvement and I have no doubt you will receive a fair hearing.
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

ORIGINAL: Randomizer
I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.
This actually lands on the deck of the scenario authors and has nothing to do with CMANO itself. Two points if I may;

1. All scenario authors (and the other CMNAO content providers) are giving their time and efforts for free. Writing and testing an interesting scenario is often time consuming and there will be occasions where the briefings might lag behind changes as the scenario evolves. Scenario writing in my experience is almost never a linear process and it is incredibly easy to have missed something once the author finally thinks "Finished!". In truth I doubt that many scenario authors ever consider their work entirely complete or better than satisfactory. I suspect that if you made the effort to provide the scenario author with feedback regarding any ambiguity or shortcoming in the scenario text or victory conditions they would gratefully respond with an update or a rationale for what was uploaded.

2. There will and indeed should be scenarios where vague briefings and nebulous victory conditions are intentional. The number of military operations where the commander has gone into action knowing beforehand "I need to sink-X, shoot down-Y number of A/C and require ships A, B and C at point-Z for Q-time" is for any practical purposes so close to zero as to be irrelevant. If you get a clear mission statement, consider yourself lucky. CMANO allows scenario authors to throw all sorts of surprises into the mix in a fashion that can mirror the real world quite nicely.

If you have any issues with any community scenario, post or PM the author with your thoughts and suggestions for improvement and I have no doubt you will receive a fair hearing.

1. Unfortunately by the time I have feedback to give, I am done with the scenario because I have searched through forums or used the editor to figure out the problem.
2. Real world does not have arbitrary win conditions based on scenario specific mechanisms. I the real world when I have to land my force by X time on Y beach I don't have to accomplish that by obeying arbitraty event triggets like "Unit A must be within Area B for C amount of time".

My only suggestion is to not be vague about the mechanisms when your scenario needs very specific triggers for things that in real life are self explanatory. It is not my job to figure out that "landing a recon unit" means "hovering any helicopter within a certain area so that a teleoprt event triggers".
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: Refund

Post by mikmykWS »

I do have one criticism that I agree with. Scenario briefings are often out of sync with that is going on, or woefully incomplete as to victory conditions and specific actions that must be taken to meet them. Often I have found myself with wiped out enemies but still unable to win because I did not move Unit A within area B so that event C can be fired, even though no specific instructions that I needed to do that were given.

You payed for ours so you can be much more judgmental and grind us over the coals in the web forum all you want.

The community scenarios are a volunteer effort and people are learning so I think patience and helping people out would probably yield a better return in the long run. Might even make a friend or two [:)]

Mike

dox44
Posts: 653
Joined: Sun May 07, 2000 8:00 am
Location: the woodlands, texas

RE: Refund

Post by dox44 »

my background is USMC. so my main problems are learning the strengths/weaknesses of platforms/systems
that i know little or nothing about...then apply that within the flow of the sim.

i understood what i was purchasing when i bought CMANO. i researched the game and waited for a while before
i purchased it. i don't want a refund nor am i disappointed with what i've seen from the game (we could argue
whether that is a compliment or not though). i knew it would take a while.

its just frustrating. i'm not sure much can be done. i'll just keep playing and watching mr. baloogan (?)

thanks for asking though, i appreciate it.

Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

The community scenarios are a volunteer effort and people are learning so I think patience and helping people out would probably yield a better return in the long run. Might even make a friend or two [:)]

I am not sure what constitutes a 'community scenario'. I have only played scenarios that came with the game so far. In any case I specifically avoided mentioning specific scenarios so hopefully nobody it taking my comments personally.
mikmykWS
Posts: 7185
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: Refund

Post by mikmykWS »

Which is probably good. You seem wound a little tight about this scenario business. Just sayin[:)]
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

Yeah it does hit a nerve for two reasons.

One it ruins my immersion and enjoyment of a victory when I have to search the forums (or even worse, fiddle with the editor) just to see what the magic handhsake to win the scenario was, when I have totally trounced the computer AI in every possible level of success determination. Most people may not get it because they re-play things but I am not like that. I will never play a scenario twice (unless I lost) just like I will never see a movie or read a book twice or play a linear or semi-linear game twice. It is all about the new experience and finding out what comes next. Once I know, I am done.

Second, when all the hours in making the game and all the hours in making the scenario and all my hours in playing it, get trashed because a better explanation of scenario mechanisms that takes 10 minutes to write is missing... [&:]
Pergite!
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:40 pm
Location: The temperate climate zone

RE: Refund

Post by Pergite! »

ORIGINAL: Shemar


I am not sure what constitutes a 'community scenario'. I have only played scenarios that came with the game so far. In any case I specifically avoided mentioning specific scenarios so hopefully nobody it taking my comments personally.

How on earth do you expect some kind of improvements if you don't actually point out where the improvement needs to happen? Scenarios gets revised all the time, but they are all depended on proper feedback to do so.
thewood1
Posts: 9106
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: Boston

RE: Refund

Post by thewood1 »

That is my question...where has the detailed feedback on the issue been? I look through the mod/scenario thread and have not seen anyone give that particular feedback to an author. These guys beg for feedback and then see a thread like this where they are thrown under the bus as a whole.
Dobey455
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:50 am

RE: Refund

Post by Dobey455 »

ORIGINAL: Shemar

I am not sure what constitutes a 'community scenario'. I have only played scenarios that came with the game so far.

The community scenarios DO come with the game. Basically any scenario you find under the "Community Scenario" field when choosing a new game (attached pic).

These aren't made by the game developers they are put together by players like you and me and the Dev's add them to each new release. Some of the guys are a real pro's that have been making scenarios in this game and others for years.
Others are pretty new and, sure, may have made a few errors or be a little un-polished.

If you don't like the community scenario's you can stick to the official ones, or better yet, create some of your own that play out the way you like.

We're all just trying to have fun here, and if you only like to play a scenario once then move on, then I am sure you realize what a valuable resource it is to have:

a) A sandbox style game with limitless possible scenarios
b) A large number of players willing to use their imagination to create all sorts of scenarios for us to try out.

When we give positive, constructive feedback it helps make the scenarios better and encourages people to keep contributing.

Image
Attachments
Pic.jpg
Pic.jpg (33.62 KiB) Viewed 101 times
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

First of all I have only played scenarios under the "Standalone Scenarios" folder. Are these official game scenarios or not?

Second, I would expect anyone who is smart enough to write a scenario for CMANO, good enough to be distributed with the game, to not require feedback on something obvious and common sense like "if I need to do something unrealistically specific to fire your event trigger, be specific about it in your briefing".

Third, when a scenario has page long forum threads about what you have to do to get the events to fire properly and nothing has been done about it, why would I assume that my feedback, on a scenario I will never play again, have any effect?

Fourth, nobody is telling me I am actually wrong, but everybody is so upset. What gives? Is there some secret agreement that publicly criticizing scenarios instead of privately contacting the author is taboo? What is all this fuss about?
User avatar
Sardaukar
Posts: 11290
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Finland/Israel

RE: Refund

Post by Sardaukar »

Can we not use topic Refund to discuss these things...it'll scare new prospective buyers. [:D]

Oooops..I did it too...[8D]
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

Image
thewood1
Posts: 9106
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:24 pm
Location: Boston

RE: Refund

Post by thewood1 »

I don't think anyone is upset. We are asking questions. I didn't know the two were synonymous.
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

Well I didn't know that saying that some scenario briefings are incomplete was synonymous to attacking the scenario designer community or asking/expecting something to be done about it [&:]

It is just a shame to play a scenario for upwards of 20-30 hours (I am a micromanaging freak), wipe out everything the enemy has thrown at you and then... lose [:(] because I was supposed to move some unit within some area so that a specific event could be fired. That is not to say I did not enjoy playing but it is like the tiny scratch or dent in your car that is not worth doing anything about but still bugs you. Nothing to be done other than moving on to the next scenario and hoping it will not be like that.
Pergite!
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:40 pm
Location: The temperate climate zone

RE: Refund

Post by Pergite! »

ORIGINAL: Shemar

Well I didn't know that saying that some scenario briefings are incomplete was synonymous to attacking the scenario designer community or asking/expecting something to be done about it [&:]

Nobody except yourself are saying that you are attacking anything or anyone. I can't see anyone that is particular upset either for that matter.
It would however help the community if you please could give up the information of which scenario it was that you had problems with? (Instead of for example writing about car paint)
Shemar
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:51 pm

RE: Refund

Post by Shemar »

There are several instances but the one I remember most vividly because there were 2-3 instances just in this one scenario was Canary Cage (bad with names and memory, the one you play as Spain against North African states). I think there was a case of landing a recon unit that the instructions were either completely missing or may have been on a popup message that goes away never to be seen again and also landing troops required keeping the landing craft within an area for a specific (but not specified in the briefing) amount of time.

This is not new information, for example here is my own thread discussing the issues: tm.asp?m=3536173

I had even forgotten I made a thread, I actually found it by googling "Canary Cage Command" [8D]
Post Reply

Return to “Command: Modern Operations series”