Why ?
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
Why ?
If I had just one question to ask the development team it would be "Why?"
I have now played the game a couple of days and found it kind of interesting - which is saying a lot as most games don't get my interest at all, however the game itself has some really weird design decisions that have been made.
For instance, why can I automate taxation, but not change the levels of population where the taxation should change ?
Why can I mod a race or a government, or the tech tree - but not the way the economy works ?
As a pirate I can sit all day blowing up other factions transport ships, but I cannot automate that nor can I just shut down my pirate base to their business.
Clearly the design is implemented with the idea that you guys would like the player to be able to CHOOSE what and how they play the game, but none of the really important decisions are available to be made.
For instance I was just watching a beginning pirate game and looking at my 5 transports and what they were doing - we had a contract with a human base not far away for silicon.
I see a transport start moving there, and what's it carrying ? Osalia ?!
I can handle that I have zero control of the transports but I cannot even seem to make a decision as to what's a priority and what isn't. When I do take a contract for a particular good, they ignore it?!
Why not open up some of the variables, priorities and decisions the transports are making to the player - even if you keep the direct manipulation of the individual transports themselves out of reach?
So, just plainly - Why?
I have now played the game a couple of days and found it kind of interesting - which is saying a lot as most games don't get my interest at all, however the game itself has some really weird design decisions that have been made.
For instance, why can I automate taxation, but not change the levels of population where the taxation should change ?
Why can I mod a race or a government, or the tech tree - but not the way the economy works ?
As a pirate I can sit all day blowing up other factions transport ships, but I cannot automate that nor can I just shut down my pirate base to their business.
Clearly the design is implemented with the idea that you guys would like the player to be able to CHOOSE what and how they play the game, but none of the really important decisions are available to be made.
For instance I was just watching a beginning pirate game and looking at my 5 transports and what they were doing - we had a contract with a human base not far away for silicon.
I see a transport start moving there, and what's it carrying ? Osalia ?!
I can handle that I have zero control of the transports but I cannot even seem to make a decision as to what's a priority and what isn't. When I do take a contract for a particular good, they ignore it?!
Why not open up some of the variables, priorities and decisions the transports are making to the player - even if you keep the direct manipulation of the individual transports themselves out of reach?
So, just plainly - Why?
RE: Why ?
What would be interesting is if the player could take direct control of freighters during times of war. This has a lot of precedence in the real world - even the big trans-Atlantic liners like the Queen Mary were requisitioned for military use during WWII. SOME ships were allowed to continue shipping basic goods, but some ships were pulled from civilian duties and temporarily served the war effort.
That way you don't have badly needed ships sitting unfinished in the construction yards because you need silicon, but your freighters are carrying osalia instead.
That way you don't have badly needed ships sitting unfinished in the construction yards because you need silicon, but your freighters are carrying osalia instead.
"Only one human captain has survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." - Delenn of Minbar
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: Why ?
Personally, I'd rather be able to just tell each freighter what it is for.
1) Inter-Empire Trade.
2) Internal Trade. (Picking up steel from your steel miner and dropping it at the starport).
3) Refuelling.
This way I can at least change whether I have too many doing one task and not enough doing another.
If I need trade income - I can get it.
If I require more logistical support - I can get it.
1) Inter-Empire Trade.
2) Internal Trade. (Picking up steel from your steel miner and dropping it at the starport).
3) Refuelling.
This way I can at least change whether I have too many doing one task and not enough doing another.
If I need trade income - I can get it.
If I require more logistical support - I can get it.
RE: Why ?
Civilian fleet aspect definitely needs to be fleshed out. Right now its just an excuse to automate resource transfer, and could be just as easily accomplished with a more abstract (ie unitless) system.
What do they do with all their money?
What do they do with all their money?
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: Why ?
If you think I just asked for micromanagement you don't read too well.
- ehsumrell1
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:53 am
- Location: The Briar Patch Nebula
- Contact:
RE: Why ?
ALL opinions in the forums are valid, but let's PLEASE keep responses civil folks!
Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: Why ?
It was civil, why have a thread railroaded by some dude that hasn't got the time to read the op, but finds the time to reply anyhow ?
RE: Why ?
It probably wouldn't. All it takes is that ships actually have job categories and that the policy screen has an option for specifying those ratios. It would lead to problems, however, since the game won't be able to just use the nearest ship as effectively. And it's not at all certain that this distinction between job types is even feasible for the current AI. But as a concept, it could be implmemented without any micro at all.ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
Personally, I'd rather be able to just tell each freighter what it is for.
Orders for every new freighters job,yeah that would not add micro,lol.
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: Why ?
ORIGINAL: Spidey
It probably wouldn't. All it takes is that ships actually have job categories and that the policy screen has an option for specifying those ratios. It would lead to problems, however, since the game won't be able to just use the nearest ship as effectively. And it's not at all certain that this distinction between job types is even feasible for the current AI. But as a concept, it could be implmemented without any micro at all.ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
Personally, I'd rather be able to just tell each freighter what it is for.
Orders for every new freighters job,yeah that would not add micro,lol.
Exactly what I'm talking about. Micro is steering the ship, giving it a "job classification" and then letting it go... isn't micro.
At the very least access to some of this for modding would allow some choice - that was also my point.
Why is there heaps of choice with some parts of the automation, but then ZERO in the part that's probably most infuriating ?!
Did the devs just not get to that part of the game ? cbf ?
- ehsumrell1
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:53 am
- Location: The Briar Patch Nebula
- Contact:
RE: Why ?
ORIGINAL: thefinn
Personally, I'd rather be able to just tell each freighter what it is for.
1) Inter-Empire Trade.
2) Internal Trade. (Picking up steel from your steel miner and dropping it at the starport).
3) Refuelling.
This way I can at least change whether I have too many doing one task and not enough doing another.
If I need trade income - I can get it.
If I require more logistical support - I can get it.
ASHBERRY76
The idea of the Civilian fleet is that you do not have all that micromanagement.Do not expect it to change.
Although not all of the opinions of thefinn were addressed, I just want to make a few statementsthefinn
If you think I just asked for micromanagement you don't read too well.
concerning this type of thread.
To start, if anyone has played this game, one would know that if Elliot would have designed the
civilian sector workings (civilian ship movements, freight routing, etc.) any differently there
would be SO much micromanagement involved that the game would be horrific to play in my opinion.
During an average mid-game imagine how many Large, Medium, and Small Transports would have to be
overseen, routes redirected and so on if what the OP suggests should be allowed. Hundreds of ships
across numerous sectors. Lets not mention continuing to manage your military ships, troops, and other
chores.
As a member of the development test team since Return Of The Shakturi, I feel that I'm qualified
enough to say that Elliot has it right. Could there be some tweaking, of course! Remember not to
overlook the fact that although the 20 or so beta testers continue to play-test hundreds of gamehours
during development, once there is a release, immediately there are THOUSANDS more gamehours played
within just a couple of weeks from release that can expose bugs and use viewpoints that we havent
seen. Whether it's a matter of playstyle, immersion, comparison to other games, or just ignoring the
fact that this game is the imaginative creation of what ELLIOT wanted DW to be.
ASHBERRY76 is a respected long tenured member of our DW community and contributes answers to help other
players continuously. Although I feel that his response was a bit terse, he did make a statement that
reflected the truth and supports that he DID read the original statements. thefinn, I respect your right
of opinion, but realistically, what you are requesting would create a flurry of micromanagement. Both in
opportunity and fact.
Please feel free to respond to this if you need to, it is your opening thread. It also would be most
helpful if your future thread headings would be a bit more detailed and directed. It's quite possible
others may respond to this, but I'm hopeful it will stay in the general area of your first post.
[:)]
Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...
RE: Why ?
Exactly what I'm talking about. Micro is steering the ship, giving it a "job classification" and then letting it go... isn't micro.
At the very least access to some of this for modding would allow some choice - that was also my point.
Why is there heaps of choice with some parts of the automation, but then ZERO in the part that's probably most infuriating ?!
Did the devs just not get to that part of the game ? cbf ?
If you go and play Stars! on a full map with full conditions then I think you may change your opinion, you can do exactly what you describe, having 200-300+ freighters to assign jobs to can get old really quick, on DW you would be looking in the thousands on the larger maps.
The AI is not perfect with freighters but it is 110% better than what it was a few years ago, Elliot has really tightened it up, that is not to say it is without fault but once you have become experienced in the game play mechanics and understand how to stage things the problems become a whole lot less.
The private fleet controlled by the AI is what sets DW apart from other 4X, it creates a real sense of life within the game, trying to micro all the freighters with assigning tasks etc would kill the immersion, not to mention the probable slowdown from the increased routines that would need to be checked.
Darkspire
RE: Why ?
Exactly. Much of the appeal of DW for me is that it presents itself as a simulation of a clockwork universe. There are things going on of their own volition, outside of the direct control of the player. They could certainly be abstracted and/or put under the control of the player, but then much of what makes DW unique would be lost.
DW is not a game for control freaks, nor for people who prefer a tighter boardgame-style set of game mechanics.
It's as much of a simulation as it is a game.
DW is not a game for control freaks, nor for people who prefer a tighter boardgame-style set of game mechanics.
It's as much of a simulation as it is a game.
- vmxa_slith
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 3:17 pm
RE: Why ?
Darkspires, why did you have to mention Stars!. Now I am going to have to fire up my old system and see, if I can get that game to run. lol
RE: Why ?
No control is best control? Just look at MoO3
Micro is immersion breaking? Not being able to set policies for civ fleet is immersion breaking....
If youre going to make them a parallel entity to state vessels, you should be a le to interact with it as an aspect of the gameplay, this is a strategy game after all.
Micro is immersion breaking? Not being able to set policies for civ fleet is immersion breaking....
If youre going to make them a parallel entity to state vessels, you should be a le to interact with it as an aspect of the gameplay, this is a strategy game after all.
-
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:00 am
RE: Why ?
I doubt everything can be done as it would add up big time. It already has a decent amount of control so if they missed something similar, I wouldn't be too mad.
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 2:40 pm
RE: Why ?
ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Exactly what I'm talking about. Micro is steering the ship, giving it a "job classification" and then letting it go... isn't micro.
At the very least access to some of this for modding would allow some choice - that was also my point.
Why is there heaps of choice with some parts of the automation, but then ZERO in the part that's probably most infuriating ?!
Did the devs just not get to that part of the game ? cbf ?
If you go and play Stars! on a full map with full conditions then I think you may change your opinion, you can do exactly what you describe, having 200-300+ freighters to assign jobs to can get old really quick, on DW you would be looking in the thousands on the larger maps.
The AI is not perfect with freighters but it is 110% better than what it was a few years ago, Elliot has really tightened it up, that is not to say it is without fault but once you have become experienced in the game play mechanics and understand how to stage things the problems become a whole lot less.
The private fleet controlled by the AI is what sets DW apart from other 4X, it creates a real sense of life within the game, trying to micro all the freighters with assigning tasks etc would kill the immersion, not to mention the probable slowdown from the increased routines that would need to be checked.
Darkspire
So then those people who don't wish to, can just leave it on auto - noone is trying to "break your game" or smash your sandcastle mate.
Just having options is always better than having none.
Especially when it comes to having things like this being able to be modded.
-
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 3:32 am
RE: Why ?
I'd say a small part of the challenge is running your empire/faction without having that control over your civilians. It could be considered as much a part of the strategy as if you did control them. Thus the deciding factor.. as it's something that I haven't really seen in other games and the fact that it does bring the game world to a simulation of life that DW is far the better for it.
-
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:11 pm
RE: Why ?
Hmmmn........."Why?"...........Interesting thread title there. Let's see because Elliot wanted to design a game where the player was acting in part or whole as the government. Private industry or the civilian sector is just that separate from the government. In effect the designer made a conscious choice to exclude the player from direct control/influence of the private economy. Yea,you can influence the private sector through taxation and level of protection you offer to the merchant fleet. Also where you build those gas mining stations,areas the government sends its explorers to to uncover/discover exploitable resources etc...but the government needs the civilian economy to run,prosper and provide the taxable income for it to function.
Why can't you mod the way the economy works? You have control over what the government can influence,that was the way it was designed by the developer. Basically that is the answer to your question. This was/is his vision,he has made many improvements and modifications over the years while keeping the base idea of his game intact.
Darkspire is quit correct in talking about how the civilian economy now vs the original distant worlds is greatly improved. It improved through testing and people playing and reporting what happened. On games to numerous to mention in testing the economy would be running fine and several clicks and decisions later you'd see red and a stalled economy cascading to failure. Not paying attention to resources and shortages,overspending and over construction...boom! Economy is a very tricky thing as in real life.
All that being said if you have specific suggestions or ideas by all means present them. Elliot is good at listening and trying to make changes/things workable. If you had a detailed idea as to how to make an "improvement" I'm sure he'd look at it. But a redesign of the game or changing the basic idea of the game chances are slim and none with slim having left town.
This was/is not meant as a combative reply to your question.