Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

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Coldmeter
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Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Coldmeter »


Guys,

Playing a real nasty scenario, Caribbean Crisis, my F-16's are only outfitted with an assortment of bombs, no dedicated SEAD and no stand off weapons, no EW units. An SA-17 unit is giving me all sorts of trouble, any thoughts apart from stay away or lose a few aircraft trying to take it out?

Mark
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snowburn
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by snowburn »

turn on relief layer, and try to plot a course where the enemy radar cant see you (fly fast, low and use the terrain/hills to hide)
Jdegani
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Jdegani »

Another gutsy option that has saved me a few times is to fly in high with sensors blaring just within range. Get them to fire off some shots at you and then turn 90 degrees (heading back out of range) and hit the burners. They'll take a much longer path getting to you and will be out of fuel by the time they reach you and won't impact...usually. Rinse and repeat as many times as the AI will keep up the fun and then when the SAM stops firing then move in for the kill. A smart opponent won't waste all their SAMs falling for the same trick over and over again but it will mean a good number of missiles you'll never have to worry about again.
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Primarchx
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Primarchx »

Believe it or not the 'skimming on the outside of a SAMs envelope daring it to shoot' technique was used with a degree of success during the Yom Kippur War.
ORIGINAL: Jdegani

Another gutsy option that has saved me a few times is to fly in high with sensors blaring just within range. Get them to fire off some shots at you and then turn 90 degrees (heading back out of range) and hit the burners. They'll take a much longer path getting to you and will be out of fuel by the time they reach you and won't impact...usually. Rinse and repeat as many times as the AI will keep up the fun and then when the SAM stops firing then move in for the kill. A smart opponent won't waste all their SAMs falling for the same trick over and over again but it will mean a good number of missiles you'll never have to worry about again.
Coldmeter
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Coldmeter »

Thanks guys,

Done some testing, the problem was that I was carrying LGB that required me up over 3000m, I tried same attack on SA-17 with a loadout of MK82 LDGP and had auto evasion off. I could stay at 73m for longer, popping up just at the last minute to 600m for bomb release. A lot of SAM's fired at me and thankfully no hits. Worked once anyway, so the preferred option for me now when you have no standoff weapons. Am also going to try having one guy up high doing the 'dare to shoot' just to keep SAM occupied.
Come on Netherlands. hurry up and get those AGM-154's

Mark
Jdegani
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Jdegani »

Cool. Nice to hear it actually can work in real life too. Although I would guess most pilots have a preference of not getting shot at in the first place.
Dimitris
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RE: Defeating SAM's with a longer reach

Post by Dimitris »

v1.04 (incl. the RCs) has a new "prosecution area" feature that can instruct SAM batteries to hold fire until you get within a certain range. Then they open fire and you have absolutely no chance of outrunning them.
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DirtyFred
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No ECM? Suicide by SAM

Post by DirtyFred »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Believe it or not the 'skimming on the outside of a SAMs envelope daring it to shoot' technique was used with a degree of success during the Yom Kippur War.

Sorry, but it was not a success at all:

Israeli Mirage Shot Down by a SAM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbUtRDjdjo0

The Israeli Air Force lost 34 aircraft from october 6th to 7th in 1973, at the start of the war, egypt wanted the sinai back, they used their soviet SAMs (EADS) to block the IAF with great success (SAM "umbrella"). Combined with IDF army blunders and fatigue it was so bad that the Israeli cabinet convened on october 12th to discuss a ceasefire. Some say even a nuclear attack was prepared...
According to an unsigned story on April 12, 1976, in the early phases of the war Prime Minister Golda Meir ordered the assembly and arming of 13 nuclear bombs. The story suggested that it was that specter of nuclear escalation that led U.S Secretary of State Henry Kissinger to act firm and fast to provide Israel with the most massive weapons airlift in history.

October 14th represents a turning point in the Yom Kippur War:
Between October 14 and November 14, 567 flights of C5A (Galaxy) and C141 (Starlifter) cargo planes brought to Israel 22,325 tons of military hardware, including tanks, Armed Personal Carriers, artillery pieces, anti-tank guided missiles (ATGD), and electronic equipment. In addition, 36 Phantom F-4s were flown directly to the Lod airport and entered combat immediately.

The US-made ECM pods for aircraft resulted from lessons learned in korea and vietnam wars - the IAF received advanced ECM pods - those effectively reduced losses in aircraft...

Even so the IAF lost 102 planes in the Yom Kippur war, about 20-40 to SAM. Part of the losses were attributed later to israeli overconfidence... and wishful thinking. Example? Here:
In early 1970, the Soviets initiated Operation Caucasus, and deployed an overstrength division of Soviet PVO air defence troops, comprising 18 battalions in three brigades, led by General Smirnov of the PVO, and drawn from PVO units in the Dnepropetrovsk, Moscow, Leningrad and Belarus districts. Each battalion comprised four SA-3 batteries, a platoon of ZSU-23-4 SPAAGs and supporting SA-7 MANPADS teams. While these units were ostensibly “instructors”, they were dressed in Egyptian uniforms and provided full crewing for the deployed SAM systems. Through early 1970 the PVO units were deployed along the Suez Canal. Operational doctrine was similar to NVN, with batteries relocating frequently, and setting up ambushes for Israeli aircraft, using multiple mutually supporting batteries.

The Soviet S-125/SA-3 Goa was designed primarily to provide point defence of fixed target areas against attacking aircraft at low to medium altitudes. The command link guided weapon had a fixed thrust solid propellant rocket sustainer motor, and was supported typically by an X-band SNR-125 engagement radar, and a P-15 Flat Face UHF-Band acquisition radar, with respectable low altitude clutter rejection performance. Nominal redeployment time for a battery was several hours, not unlike the S-75/SA-2, dependent in part on battery crew proficiency, and in part on terrain, as a large convoy of vehicles was required for movements.

In subsequent engagements against the Israelis, the Soviets are claimed to have shot down five Israeli aircraft using the SA-3, making for a cumulative total of 22 lost to SA-2, SA-3 and AAA during this period.

The only way to survive a SAM without ECM is to fly faster and higher - like the SR-71 did over Lybia in 1986.
I was piloting the SR-71 spy plane, the world’s fastest jet, accompanied by Maj Walter Watson, the aircraft’s reconnaissance systems officer (RSO). We had crossed into Libya and were approaching our final turn over the bleak desert landscape when Walter informed me that he was receiving missile launch signals. I quickly increased our speed, calculating the time it would take for the weapons-most likely SA-2 and SA-4 surface-to-air missiles capable of Mach 5 – to reach our altitude. I estimated that we could beat the rocket-powered missiles to the turn and stayed our course, betting our lives on the plane’s performance.

After several agonizingly long seconds, we made the turn and blasted toward the Mediterranean. ‘You might want to pull it back,’ Walter suggested. It was then that I noticed I still had the throttles full forward. The plane was flying a mile every 1.6 seconds, well above our Mach 3.2 limit. It was the fastest we would ever fly. I pulled the throttles to idle just south of Sicily, but we still overran the refueling tanker awaiting us over Gibraltar.


Have a nice weekend [:)]
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Primarchx
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RE: No ECM? Suicide by SAM

Post by Primarchx »

ORIGINAL: DirtyFred

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Believe it or not the 'skimming on the outside of a SAMs envelope daring it to shoot' technique was used with a degree of success during the Yom Kippur War.

Sorry, but it was not a success at all:

Some Israeli pilots, desperate for options, did use this technique with a degree of success against the SA-6. I didn't say it was a preferred method.
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DirtyFred
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RE: No ECM? Suicide by SAM

Post by DirtyFred »

ok point taken [&o]

i read some more on the Yom Kippur Air War and found more amazing tactics:
When the Israelis recognized the effect that the Egyptian AD was having they changed the prioritization of targetry to hitting enemy AD sites first before engaging other targets. Such operations are known as Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD). The Israelis put the lessons learned from the American air experience in Vietnam into place with respect to engaging targets and attempted to attack enemy SAM sites first. However, the Egyptians had anticipated this and deployed anti-aircraft guns around their SAM sites in order to protect them against low flying aircraft. These smaller weapons forced the Israelis to abandon their low altitude approaches and attack the SAM batteries from a higher altitude, exposing them to SAM fire. The Egyptians also showed a high degree of field expediency in protecting their SAM sites. They used fire barrels to attract thermal rockets and smoke screens to throw off the television guided rockets. In the face of primitive Arab methods, Western technology was sometimes rendered obsolete.

The Israelis also learned a hard lesson in radio security. During the opening phase of the war, the Israeli air commander broadcast an attack order to his pilots over a radio channel in the clear that was monitored by the Egyptians. As a result, the SAM batteries were waiting for the Israelis.

The 2K12 (SA-6 Gainful also nicknamed “three fingers of death” by Israeli pilots) surprised the Israelis in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. They were used to having air superiority over the battlefield. The highly mobile 2K12 took a heavy toll on the slower A-4 Skyhawk and even the F-4 Phantom, forming a protective umbrella until they could be removed. The radar warning receivers on the Israeli aircraft did not alert the pilot to the fact that he was being illuminated by the radar. Once the RWRs were reprogrammed and tactics changed, the 2K12 was no longer such a grave threat.

The superior low altitude performance of the weapon, and its new CW semi-active missile seeker resulted in a much higher success rate compared to the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 systems. While exact losses continue to be disputed, around 40 aircraft are usually cited as lost to SAM shots, and the 2K12 / SA-6 proved most effective of the three weapons.
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MR_BURNS2
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RE: No ECM? Suicide by SAM

Post by MR_BURNS2 »

Don't forget to mention that they killed quite a few egyptian Migs too [8D]

Iftach Spector mentioned in Loud and Clear that they sometimes used a formation of 6 low flying Phantoms, one popped up to draw fire and dodged the missiles, and when the others located the Sam site by the smoke columns they popped up and nailed it with iron bombs. Iam not quite sure which particular type of Sam he talked about in this instance though.
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chesmart
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RE: No ECM? Suicide by SAM

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