Game Out of Balance

[RedLancer]

Good thinking - I don't actually know how the modifiers apply to the rail movement restrictions.  
 
I did find this in a post by Joel in the stickied War in the West thread so it's open source and a good summary of the WitW model.
 
Speaking of logistics, here's a very crude graphic representation (on a crude alpha map) of the fact that the system now tracks rail usage down tracks. In this case various shading shows different levels of use. As use goes up, less freight moves over it and units moving over the track use more MPs. You'll notice Naples is a depot type 3 (port source of supply for other ports). You create forward depots in the game.
 

[Joel Billings]

John, if you're so inclined and have the time, you're welcome to share the details of the new WitW logistics system. Like any system, it needs to be balanced as there are so many factors that go into it. However, the capability exists to make it difficult to move a lot of freight (supplies/replacements/units) down an insufficient amount of rail lines. This capability does not exist in WitE (partially due to the speed of the computers when we first started the WitE project in late 2000 but will be in WitE 2.0).

[caliJP]

Going back to the original post from Oshawott.
Having achieved the same sort of thing in 1942 as German against AI, i.e. huge pockets, it seems the real root cause of the problem is this below. I didn't invent this, as I have seen others post about it before.
How you break a soviet line that is 3-4 units deep and then exploit and pocket, at least how I do it, and I assume others do the same:
1. Leave front line infantry alone at first to keep it as maximum MP. Bring other infantry units that maybe 1-2 hexes behind and use it to make deliberate attacks to blast the first line of soviet units
2. Have the same units opportunistically use up their MPs by making some hasties against weak units, or units that are not in too high FL
3. Move front line infantry over the units above to make some deliberate attacks against the next set of hard soviet nuts to crack
4. Have those unit opportunistically do some hasties against whatever weak spots they maybe close to
5. Bring a first set of tank/mechanized units to cross the cleared up hexes and blast whatever else may be left of the soviet line and create a breakthrough at least 3 hexes wide.
6. Now the door is open, a second set of tank/mechanized units can just drive through the open battlefield and way deep behind the soviet lines.
Of course depending on situation and players, the technique may vary, but I would guess generally everyone use this sort of wave tactic.

I think the main issue here is that the mobile units at step #6, can start moving after the previous 5 waves of sequential attacks and still have the full allotment of MPs for an entire week, even though one would think severals days should have passed during those 5 waves of attacks. I know newly cleared hexes cost more to move across, I still think that this is unrealistic and is really what enables huge pockets if your mobile units are fairly well supplied.

I think if this could be altered in some way, it would go a long way into avoiding those huge pockets, which don't seem realistic, specially in 1942.

[randallw]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

John, if you're so inclined and have the time, you're welcome to share the details of the new WitW logistics system. Like any system, it needs to be balanced as there are so many factors that go into it. However, the capability exists to make it difficult to move a lot of freight (supplies/replacements/units) down an insufficient amount of rail lines. This capability does not exist in WitE (partially due to the speed of the computers when we first started the WitE project in late 2000 but will be in WitE 2.0).

I wasn't aware the lineage of the game went back 'that far'. [:)]

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

John, if you're so inclined and have the time, you're welcome to share the details of the new WitW logistics system.

With pleasure - I'll post in the War in the West thread though

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
* The Soviets could get say 20% of destroyed units back for free in 1942. This would make it easier for the Soviets to recover if they are roughly handled in 1942. There is no realism ground for this, but neither is there for the AP crunch being the way to defeat the Soviet army.

I think a more comprehensive solution is to simply include historical Russian reinforcements, rather than relying on user created units. Not an easy task as the Russian order of battle is monstrous and confusing, but there's a chance something or another along these lines can be in place for 2.0. I think the AP crunch Russian players face is far too unrealistic as far as it concerns unit creation. Unit creation should essentially be taken out of the AP sphere.

I have to agree with Schmart on this... and I also wonder why things like HQ buildup and temporary motorization are paid for with AP instead of a charge against trucks and fuel stocks.

[hfarrish]

I'm pretty sure they do carry a charge against trucks. Not sure about fuel stocks.

[Oshawott]

Yes, HQ Buildup cost trucks. Please read the manual. You can get into trouble as the Germans if you do too may HQ buildups. I had a truck shortage during blizzard 41/42 in my game but it didn't matter because the Russians were so weak. It would be a good idea to make HQ buildups more expensive in regards to trucks as a balancing mechanism.

[Dangun]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack
WITE in my opinion misses the forest for the trees. It's great that I know how many Sdkfz's I have in whatever unit and whatever model, but it doesn't help me know the larger, more important strategic problems which have plagued the game from the start.

I completely agree.
This is why I stopped playing.
Victory was seemingly more determined by inexplicable OOB changes, airforce settings, HQ buildups and supply drops, than anything that was interesting - movement and combat.

It was as though GG saw a computer and learned the wrong lesson - let's involve the players even more deeply in the really boring cr@p that the computer would be better suited at removing from the game.

[jzardos]

I've paid my money for WitE, so will speak my mind. From all the forum posts and knowledge absorbed (some very inner circle), I too put most of the blame for failures on GG. Feel he's a bit of an egomaniac and has a horrible trait of not knowing when to admit he's wrong or made a mistake. Nothing wrong with making mistakes, in fact many successful business people express it's a good thing. It's what you do after the mistake that defines you better. Since the release of WitE there's been hundreds of posts on simple fixes and other misc improvements which I feel GG has turned a blind eye on or didn't want to admit he was wrong. Thank goodness for all the persistence from others to get the changes we've seen so far. If GG wants to put his name in the title of any more games, I for one will not purchases them. Really? Do you have to put your name in title? Who does that? [:-]

[Oshawott]

I started this thread and everyone is free to give his opinion of course. But I think this is not the right place to insult the designer of this game.

I have not given up on this game like many other players obviously have. I see a lot of tactical mistakes in my games. The game punishes tactical mistakes severely and that is a good thing. It is harder to play the Axis then to play the Russians but it should be like this. The goal for the Axis should not be to win the game in 41 or 42 but to get a draw in 45. A draw for the Axis is in my opinion a major victory for the Axis. Sounds weird I know.

Certain adjustments will make the game more interesting depending on the players:

- eliminate 1=2 rule
- reduce fortification level for both sides
- reduce Russian morale
- reduce logistic level for both sides slightly

[GamesaurusRex]

I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving of GG. After all, without game producers, they don't get produced.

I think the game, with all it flaws, is still entertaining and well worth the price of the ticket... and all the more so, after all the forum support and patch refining efforts. Morvael's recent work will enable a great deal of adjustment elements that players can use to tailor the balance of each game.

Beyond that, there is the possibility of WITE 2.0, which will surely correct much of the perceived issues. I'll buy WITE 2.0, if and when it becomes available.

[jzardos]

I don't believe in the theory without GG there would be no WitE. Sure no GG WitE, but a game of this scale on the war in the east would have been created at some point.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Do you have to put your name in title? Who does that? [:-]

Sid Meier? [:'(]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: morvael

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Do you have to put your name in title? Who does that? [:-]

Sid Meier? [:'(]

There was a board wargame from SPI called Eric Goldberg's Kursk.

If Shelby and Roush can put their names on cars, why can't a game designer on his games?

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Do you have to put your name in title? Who does that? [:-]

Sid Meier? [:'(]

With all your excellent work on this one... I'm going to refer to WITE as "Morvael's WITE". [;)]

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: jzardos
Do you have to put your name in title? Who does that? [:-]

Enzo Ferrari? Ferdinand Porsche? Willy Messerschmidt?

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

I don't believe in the theory without GG there would be no WitE. Sure no GG WitE, but a game of this scale on the war in the east would have been created at some point.

Can you give some examples of similar games?

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

- reduce Russian morale

Hell no! Now it is 40-45 morale, in 42 it means 1-2 CV for rifle division.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

ORIGINAL: Oshawott

- reduce Russian morale

Hell no! Now it is 40-45 morale, in 42 it means 1-2 CV for rifle division.

And that's it in a nutshell - one man's balance is another man's bias. At least GG gives us something to debate that isn't politics, religion or football (which I understand is actually a mix of politics, religion and sweat)