A New 'Treaty' Grand Campaign

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DD696
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by DD696 »

General Patton paused to take a leak in the river Rhine when he crossed it. He was showing his "appreciation" of the German defensive line.
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: DD696

General Patton paused to take a leak in the river Rhine when he crossed it. He was showing his "appreciation" of the German defensive line.

Yep. That's my general.[:D][:D][:D] GP
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by DD696 »

Your General, but many others also....
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: DD696

Your General, but many others also....

Of course...... GP
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by DD696 »

Yep, sometimes even a Marine can appreciate one of those army guys. [:)]
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by btd64 »

My Father-in-law was a Marine. Great guy. Miss him......GP
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RE: Kaigun Notes

Post by John 3rd »

Final Kaigun Additions/Changes

CVs
Akagi (Sister Ships)
Amagi

CVL
Ryukaku (Single deck hangar CVL with Air Complement of 27 planes) the design is successful and becomes the proto-Hiryu Class and all subsequent Japanese CVLs. Ryujo is built as is and becomes a failed design. Ryukaku succeeds as a more 'realistic' CVL for tonnage left.

CVE (Experimental)
Hosho (Sister Ships)
Ibuki

BC
Ishitaka Amagi-Class BC.

CLV (Hybrid Cruiser Carriers)
______________ (Need Names reflecting their hybrid nature. SUGGESTIONS?)
______________

Specs:
15,000 T, 3x3 6" Guns, 6x1 5" Secondary, Cruiser Speed, reasonable armor (along Mogami Class CL), designed for 54 planes but carries 42 at this point in time (21 Zero and 21 Kate OR 24 Zero and 18 Kate OR 27 Zero and 15 Kate). The ships may be converted into Hiryu-Class CVs starting in summer 1942. Figure a 6-12 month conversion. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Japanese Cruisers
CAs
OK. We are gonna play the 'tonnage' game for Japanese CAs. In this Mod the following happens to the 'traditional' Japanese CAs and the year they were completed:

1. MYOKO: Myoko (29), Nachi (28), Haguro (29), Ashigara (29), Seiki (29), Chishima(30), Miyako (30), and Yoshino (30) . They are 10,000 T: 80,000 T
2. TAKAO: Takao (32), Atago (32), Maya (32), and Chokai (32). They are 9,850 T: 39,400 T

Taking Myoko and Nachi equals 119,400 T leaving (with a Treaty Tonnage of 122,500). The Japanese expand the Myoko's into a class of eight ships. New names are above in Italics/Bolded.

As to Third and Fourth Circle Plans I would have two CAs authorized per plan. These would not be Tone's but reflect Japan's shift towards the triple turret. The Niitaka-Class CA mounts 4x3 8" guns. Displacement would surge to about 13,000 T. They are a perfect example of 'using a few to conquer many.' There are designs for this class over in Ship Bucket and we planned to use them in the Perfect War Mod. The first pair would be Tone and Chikuma (available at war's start) followed by two more pairs from the plans (due in 1942 and 1944)...

Total PRE-WAR Build for CAs: 14 with 4 building.

CLs
Tenryu, Tatsuta, Kuma and Tama are converted to Fast Mine-Layers.
Kitakami, Oi, and Kiso become Training Cruisers and, thus, no need to build the Katori Class.
NAGARA: Nagara, Isuzu, Yura, Natori, Kinu, and Abukuma remain classified as CLs rated at 5,170 T: 31,020 T.
SENDAI: Naka, Sendai, Jintsu, and Minase rated at 5,195 T: 20,780 T
FURUTAKA: Furutaka, Kako, Aoba, and Kinugasa 7,500 T: 30,000 T.
MOGAMI: Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya, and Kumano 8,500 T: 34,000 T.

Total tonnage is 115,800. Authorized Tonnage is 112,000. So Japan is slightly over, however, she is slightly under for CAs so we'll call this good.

In production, starting with 3rd and 4th Circle is a reduced size-Mogami Class CL of 3x3 6", good Torps, and about 8,000 T.

Total PRE-WAR CLs: 18 with 8 Building.

The Total Cruiser tonnage is 235,200 allowed by Treaty with 234,500 ACTUAL when Treaty is abandoned.


This would be the changes/additions to the Kaigun. Open for conversation.
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John 3rd
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American Additions

Post by John 3rd »

OK. Now time for the American additions/changes:

CV Lexington
CV Saratoga

CVL King's Mountain

Built off the lessons learned from the failed real life Ranger. This CVL is a proto-Yorktown Class of 13,000T carrying 54 planes (18 F4F, 18 SBD, and 18 TBD) and cruiser speed.

CLV-1 Charlotte
CLV-2 Jacksonville

These hybrids carry 3x3 6", 8x1 5", have St Louis Class Armor, and 24 Planes (12 F4F and 12 SBD). Will be allowed to convert into Independence Class CVLs.

Lexington-Class BCs
CC-1 Ranger
CC-2 Constellation

Northhampton-Class
CA Burlington
CA Rome

St Louis-Class
CL Anchorage
CL Dallas

Will add 4 more Somer's-Class DDs as well as an equal number of Benham-Class. Could use some additional names for these DDs. Want to use Walker and Mahan for two of them. Six are open for naming...

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Empire Additions

Post by John 3rd »

For CERTAIN:

Hawkins Class CLV:
HMAS Melbourne
HMS Vindictive

The British are authorized to build two BC by the Washington Conference Treaty. Figure those would go to the Atlantic for the war BUT could Britain TRANSFER something to reinforce Force Z with another Capital Ship? If so, then which?

Would add a few Dds to provide some form of screening ships...

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DOCUP
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by DOCUP »

I likie.  With all the new ships are we thinking of a few new TFs out at sea?
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by John 3rd »

My initial thoughts regarding the Fleets and dispositions are still up in the air. The American BCs would be with Enterprise I think.

Imagine Ishitaka as part of Kido Butai.

Would like to add a CA to the Philippines joining Houston. Might add a nice little bit of firepower to the Asiatic Fleet.

Beyond those comments I am not sure.

Think Charlotte is guarding the Pensacola TF and, perhaps, Jacksonville is in the SE Pacific covering a TF as well. Maybe King's Mountain is with Jacksonville or (more safely) with Saratoga on the West Coast. Would LOVE to place her at Pearl!

Wide open for thinking gang. Give me your most 'practical thoughts...
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by ny59giants »

Allied at start dispositions:

Pensacola TF has CLV Charlotte (place SBD-2s on vs -1 for better range) with 2 CAs and at least 4 DDs (A division worth) at Darwin per RA. Move Houston here so there is maybe 2 Northampton Class CAs together. To a degree of allowing larger warships traveling in pairs and in response to increased tensions at start.

CL Boise gets a sister ship with her and 4 of the old Clemson Class DDs in southern Philippines. Good CLs and poor DDs in a small SC TF.

CV Saratoga is 'still' at San Diego, but move the DDs around from there and San Fran so she can leave with decent DDs rather than the old DDs on 8th.

CV Enterprise and Lexington have historical at start positions.

CVL Hermes (fully repaired with fighters and Swordfish) and a CLV Hawkins Class are one to two days steaming south of Ceylon with warships that start around India and Ceylon. They are too far away to stop the first few days of invasions, but would make Palembang more difficult in a few days, especially if CLV Charlotte joins them. A small, but potentially lethal carrier group for any Japanese TF that tries to go places without adequate air cover. [:-]

Japan:
More of her CVE/CVLs start at Babeldoab. Thus, setting up a potential December confrontation between the smaller British and American carriers vs these. Something I know you would like. [:D] A side benefit would be making Japanese invasions more methodical and hopefully slower.

These changes will in all likelihood make a splitting off of Kaga or another CV from KB to have her head for Philippines and/or Malaya almost guaranteed.
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by John 3rd »

That is a good start for thoughts regarding deployment. Anybody else have ideas? Where should King's Mountain start?
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by ny59giants »

Where should King's Mountain start?

At San Diego with Sara. Maybe a few more CA/CLs there to come out and deal with any splitting off of a CarDiv from KB to head to NE from Pearl. That may give even you some pause..... NOT!!
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by DOCUP »

Good ideas so far.  I have the US BCs with my CV TFs at the start of the game.  Might have to worry about one of them running into the Wake landing party.  So John wants to send the Jap BC to the West Coast to raid.   I like that idea.  BCs are suppose to raid.  Also think about having it around the DEI area to raid.  More later
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by John 3rd »

I concur that Saratoga should have her battle group present on the West Coast. Should be easy. We'll take the CAs in Enterprise's TF and move them to the WC.
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by DOCUP »

I'm not a JFB, so this is just a shot in the dark.  For the Japanese.  Why not move the Kaga to TF 3 and move one of those CVs to TF 18.  Keep them fast and equal, well somewhat. If you put the BC with the KB add some extra DDs.  So the BC can go raiding.  Maybe add one of the CLVs (depending on the speed).   
 
Maybe have a CLV or both of them close by to cover the Wake invasion.  The conversion time for the CLVs should be close to the Allied CLVs shouldn't they.  I don't know for sure.  This is a layman's thought.
 
 
 
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by DOCUP »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I'm not a JFB, so this is just a shot in the dark.  For the Japanese.  Why not move the Kaga to TF 3 and move one of those CVs to TF 18.  Keep them fast and equal, well somewhat. If you put the BC with the KB add some extra DDs.  So the BC can go raiding.  Maybe add one of the CLVs (depending on the speed).   

Maybe have a CLV or both of them close by to cover the Wake invasion.  The conversion time for the CLVs should be close to the Allied CLVs shouldn't they.  I don't know for sure.  This is a layman's thought.

What about the second CLV for the allies, Is it in the Pacific or Alantic?
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John 3rd
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I'm not a JFB, so this is just a shot in the dark.  For the Japanese.  Why not move the Kaga to TF 3 and move one of those CVs to TF 18.  Keep them fast and equal, well somewhat. If you put the BC with the KB add some extra DDs.  So the BC can go raiding.  Maybe add one of the CLVs (depending on the speed).   

Maybe have a CLV or both of them close by to cover the Wake invasion.  The conversion time for the CLVs should be close to the Allied CLVs shouldn't they.  I don't know for sure.  This is a layman's thought.



Well...you won't have Kaga. Instead you'll have CARDIV1 as Akagi and Amagi. NICE! The KB will be nearly all the same speed.

OOB:
CVs: Akagi, Amagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Sho and Zui
CLVs: 2 (NEED NAMES!!!)
CVL: Ryujo, Ryukaku, and Zuiho
CVE: Hosho, another conversion, and Taiyo.

How might YOU (Readers) re-arrange them?

I imagine that the question of conversion time for the CLVs would be a little shorter for the Americans and I would place BOTH of them in the Pacific. Perhaps King's Mountain should arrive TOGETHER with Yorktown?
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RE: Empire Additions

Post by wdolson »

If the CLV was a failed design, maybe it would be sent to the Asiatic Fleet which was sort of a dumping ground for unwanted ships with only a few modern ships as the backbone.

Japanese warship conversions were usually named something phoenix (ho): Hosho, Zuiho, Shoho. Merchant conversions were names something falcon (yo) as in Junyo (perigrine falcon) I believe Zui and Sho mean "Fortunate" and "Flying". Interestingly the Flying Crane (Zuikaku) and Flying Phoenix (Zuiho) survived longer than almost any other Japanese carrier. The Zuikaku wasn't even hit for the first time until the day after her sister was sunk. Ryu means "dragon".

You can probably cobble together some new names from Ryu, ho, and kaku. For example Jokaku would be Prancing Crane. Taikaku would be Great Crane. Tairyu would be Great Dragon. Bakaryu would be Stupid Dragon [:D]

Akagi, Amagi, Kaga, Chitose, and Chiyoda did not follow these naming conventions. They kept their original names before conversion. The last two at the request of their crews during conversion.

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