[ADJUSTMENTS MADE B540/541] Are planes always evading?

[hb921]

I haven't noticed any situation when plane is nor evading when attacked by missile.
So I set test scenario - MiG-21, with F-4 at 6 o'clock. Middle of the night, so visibility should be far from perfect. F-4 fired sidewider - just to eliminate any possibility of RWR. Run it about 10 times. In each calculation MiG was counted as evading missile. So is it possible to surprise plane? In RL to evade you need to know missile is chasing you. Do sim pilots always detect incoming missiles in time to evade? Or my MiG-21 was just lucky?

[Dimitris]

Quoting from another thread:

* Substantial differences in pilot visibility. This doesn't matter much if a fighter has good onboard sensors and solid communication with the IADS, but when (a)your sensors are crap and/or jammed, (b)you are cut off from anyone else on your side because your comms are solid static and (c)your limited side- or rear- visibility prevents you from seeing the IAF fighter coming up on you under his own perfectly working IADS guidance, you end up exactly in the situation of being attacked and killed while flying straight and level. (As Coiler correctly pointed out, most IAF kills were the result of surprise slashing hit-and-run atacks, not artful dogfights). Command currently assumes a JSF-like 360-deg visibility for all aircraft and it is definitely something we want to improve (our DB master cries for mercy).

[Dimitris]

That said, there are indeed some cases under which the missile may not be detected until impact (very poor visibility, for example). In such a case the aircraft under attack does not get the evasion bonus.

[StellarRat]

The number of attacking aircraft should also greatly affect the chance to "surprise" the target at least in a dogfight. Pilots are terrified of 2 on 1 (or more) dogfights because it's very hard to keep track of all the enemy AC while manuevering.

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Pilots are terrified of 2 on 1 (or more) dogfights because it's very hard to keep track of all the enemy AC while manuevering.

Now now lets not start throwing words around, we are never terrified! [:'(] [8D]

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat
The number of attacking aircraft should also greatly affect the chance to "surprise" the target at least in a dogfight. Pilots are terrified of 2 on 1 (or more) dogfights because it's very hard to keep track of all the enemy AC while manuevering.

Exactly, and that's one of the things we want to explicitly model when we improve the Mk1 Eyeball mechanics. One of the most common air combat kill scenarios (both BVR and WVR, interestingly) is that you're totally focused on the bogey you are engaging and you miss the other guy sneaking up on you. And you die.

[hb921]

So, at the moment, no point in trying fancy nameouvring, to get behing enemy (as long as missile isn't tail chaser) [;)]

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: hb921
So, and the moment, no point in trying fancy nameouvring, to get behing enemy (as long as missile isn't tail chaser) [;)]

Not quite so. He may have 360-deg eyesight but, with suitable coverage from weather or darkness, you can still sneak up on him - particularly if you are electronically silent. Being behind him also gives you a few free shots until he's able to manouver enough to point his weapons at you (and also puts you in the driver's seat during the manouvers). I wouldn't discount that advantage.

In air combat, it is useful getting on the other guy's tail even if he knows all too well you're there.

[hb921]

Well, I wasn't precise - no point as far as evasion is concerned. My test scenario was in the middle of the night and firing from behind wiht passive seeker and radar off never managed to get endgame without evasion modfier. On the other hand - enemy was never able to shot back.

[Dimitris]

Did you check from the enemy's POV to see if he detected the incoming missile? If the missile was detected then the evasion bonus was normal. If no detection of the missile was made, and yet the evasion bonus was awarded, there is probably an issue.

[hb921]

Good question. Haven't checked this - will chcek ASAP.

[StellarRat]

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84
Now now lets not start throwing words around, we are never terrified! [:'(] [8D]

Right then, "somewhat irritated"... [:D]

[AlmightyTallest]

Or actually excited. [:)]

I had some Vietnam cockpit audio of U.S. pilots that were outnumbered in the fight, and the one pilot just exclaimed "Wooohooo!! Look at the Migs!!" I couldn't believe how they were actually excited about getting into the fight like that.

If I can find the audio again I'll post it. Fighter pilots have the crazy. [:D]

Edit, found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hljX_QRL-ks

They are certainly made of tougher stuff.

[hb921]

Checked - MiG sees both F-4 and sidewinders just from the moment they are launched. So, yes, evasion modifier is applied correctly.

[StellarRat]

ORIGINAL: AlmightyTallest

Or actually excited. [:)]

I had some Vietnam cockpit audio of U.S. pilots that were outnumbered in the fight, and the one pilot just exclaimed "Wooohooo!! Look at the Migs!!" I couldn't believe how they were actually excited about getting into the fight like that. They are certainly made of tougher stuff.

I listened to the audio. Of course he's excited, his quote was, "Boys we have MIGs under us." That's always an exciting position to be in. I doubt he would have been so excited if he had MIGs above and behind him. [:D] IMO, the Phantom was so superior to the MIG-17 that there was just about no way they could lose unless the F-4 was totally surprised. That was pretty unlikely since the F-4's had ground and sea based radar stations watching everything around them. The F-4 was nearly twice as fast and could easily outclimb the MIG-17. So, if things started going south they always had the option to disengage. As long as they didn't get in a turning battle with the MIGs they were OK. Also, the MIG became very difficult to fly at high speeds because the control surfaces weren't fully power assisted. The MIG-21 was a much better match, but they were rare. Still, I agree fighter pilots are a bit crazy.

[hb921]

OK, I have to refresh this thread. I just encountered situation, where plane is evading undetected missile. There is appended log and sample scen. Results vary a bit, F-18 is not always shot at and destroyed, but when it is shot at it is always evading, and never ever (run it about 10 times) detects incoming missile. Possibly it is only missing message - but it is unlikely - there is no trace of missile on map.

EDIT - tested in B538 - haven't checked in older ones.

[mikmykWS]

Found and exception error with this but didn't get the same result using a later version.

I believe what you're saying but need more evidence to divert our programmers time to this. Will play around myself but if you can produce a few more tests on this it would help.

Thanks!

Mike

[hb921]

Well, have no idea how it works in next versions... Here is setup with much simpler geometry - F-18 should be shot at just after releasing first Maverick. In B538 no trace of detection, but still evading. You can turn on F-18 radar and run the same scen. Detection of launched Grumble would be clear, and action of AC would be different - there would be status Engaged Defensively and AC would start turn.

From what I see SA-10 has to small signature and is to fast to detect by eyeball - so basically there should be no evasion. Unless it climbs to high altitude and form contrails - if F-18 survives first shots on way out it would be able to detect chasing SA-10 - and Engage Defensively.

If could point me, what test you need I would try to set them and run. Different SAMs? Different AC?

[thewood1]

"From what I see SA-10 has to small signature and is to fast to detect by eyeball"

Have you seen one? Just curious. You always come in declaring these things and am curious where it comes from.

[Sardaukar]

SA-10/S-300 is definitely not with "small signature" or "too fast to detect by eyeball".

Check some YouTube vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLBQW5c3q1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT2PO3q1uBM

It's rather big missile, with quite big signature and at least my eyeball could see that quite well....