E-class escorts die en masse vs. allied subs

[seille]

In my PBEM scenario 2 we´re now in mid 1943 and i face i increadible loss rate of e-class escorts against allied subs.
Usually i have asw-TFs of 2-3 E´s i let patrol in sub infested waters. Own attacks don´t happen often, but the subs find and attack my escorts.
This is not a problem. My problem is that every second of these attacks hit one of my ships. This feels WRONG.
10:1 loss ratio where the hunter is loosing 10 vs. 1 sub.

For me this looks like a tradeoff to balance out the "super-E´s" which i don´t even received yet. Problems started in early 1943, but has nothing to do
with reduced dud rate. It is more the amount of attacks and HITs against my E-ASW-TFs.
These high losses i face only in ASW-TFs. Using the E´s as escorts don´t bring these problems.

Maybe one of you guys can explain the very high attack and hit rate especially against little escorts in ASW-TFs which should be able to evade torps more often
compared to a freighter or tanker.

Actually every second attack against my ASW-TFs hits one of my ships. Mostly my E´s are the victims.
Subs go mostly away without beeing attacked [:@]

[Alfred]

Has nothing to do with the changes made to deal with the "super E".  Those changes only affected the positioning of DC racks and ammo, nothing on the code targeting algorithmns.  Subs will always tend to focus on what represents a danger to them.  Allied players are used to having their escorts targeted more often than their merchantmen.
 
Sending out dedicated ASW TF does not per se make them the hunters and the subs the hunted.  For that situation to be the likely scenario you need:
 
1.  A high prior DL on the sub.  This is best gained by spotting the sub with air assets and then the ASW TF reacting
 
2.  Having a high crew experience level on the ASW ships
 
3.  Having a high naval stat and aggression leader in charge of the ASW TF
 
4.  Operating in shallow water
 
Alfred 

[seille]

Alfred, it just feels strange. Even the subs are detected i rarely get the first shot. Mostly the subs fire and go away without beeing attacked.
The high hit rate out of torps fired all your four points don´t explain. It just explains why my ASW-TFs are not effective.
I have ASW-TFs that lost already two out of three ships. This in air asw controlled waters. The subs suffered no losses here, but they hit again and again.
For me it looks like the E´s have a clear disadvantage when operating in ASW-TFs starting in 1943.

I could now compare this to my own japanese early war attacks by subs against enemy escort vessels. Every 10-15 attacks i was successful here i think.
But i don´t do this. I know the allied subs and their crews get better, but imho they shouldn´t be that good.

[spence]

It looks like IJN/IJA ASW assets (escort type ships and/or ASW a/c) sank 33 US, 4 UK and 2 RNN submarines during the war (other sinkings due to bombings, mines, groundings, shore batteries, scuttling, etc are not included in this total).

According to the TROMs of the various escort type ships at CombinedFleet.com the IJN lost 38 DDs and 80 escort type ships (E's/CD's/DMS/CM/second class DDs, etc) to submarine torpedoes: about 3 escorts for each submarine sunk. The ratio didn't change much during the course of the war in spite of Japan's belated emphasis on ASW.

[obvert]

Don't worry about these losses. You will get so many super E soon you won't know what to do with them.

That said, I'd use larger ASW TFs. Four works best for me. There is a reason they limited the size on these. The more ships you have looking (with commanders that have high naval skill) the more often you'll find the subs. Also, Use night and day air search plus ASW air search. Make sure your search pilots are well trained. I also train ASW planes in low naval skill.

Your kill ratios will soon far exceed historical plausibility, so if you're feeling like this is a rough period, hang in there. It'll soon be your opponent complaining he's sling too many subs. And he'll have a good point, as evidenced by the numbers above.

[Jim D Burns]

If you want to cut down on escort losses, do like I do. Keep your ASW task forces very close to a port (maybe 3 hex max range patrol route going out and back from the port), and set their reaction range to 6. Then have lots of air search in the area to spot the subs and hopefully your ships will react to them at some point and get the first shot in.

If you are out in the open ocean sailing around blindly looking for them, more often than not your ASW task force is spotted and attacked first by the sub, so you’d have to survive the torpedo salvo to even get a shot at the sub. Its better I think to depend on a reaction move strategy for your main surface ASW threat near ports. Further out to sea, escorts inside a task force or air attacks is what I depend on to deter subs.

Historically it wasn’t until the allies developed hunter killer groups with the CVE’s that they could eventually put a stop to the open ocean sub threat. Surface assets simply were too few in numbers and underwater sonar too primitive to be an effective deterrent to subs in the vast expanse of the ocean, and the game reflects that pretty well.

Jim

[Xargun]

Also keep your patrols as Cruise speed and not missions speed. Very little difference in range but a huge increase in survival chance if your ships are hit with a torpedo.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Don't worry about these losses. You will get so many super E soon you won't know what to do with them.

That said, I'd use larger ASW TFs. Four works best for me. There is a reason they limited the size on these. The more ships you have looking (with commanders that have high naval skill) the more often you'll find the subs. Also, Use night and day air search plus ASW air search. Make sure your search pilots are well trained. I also train ASW planes in low naval skill.

Your kill ratios will soon far exceed historical plausibility, so if you're feeling like this is a rough period, hang in there. It'll soon be your opponent complaining he's sling too many subs. And he'll have a good point, as evidenced by the numbers above.

I believe someone posted some time ago that 3 was the optimal size for an ASW TF. Something to do with attack routines...

You also really need night air search to combat subs. It helps the ASW TFs react properly.

[Lecivius]

"I believe someone posted some time ago that 3 was the optimal size for an ASW TF. Something to do with attack routines... "

I recall it as being 4. Damn, gonna have to go a-lookin....

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

"I believe someone posted some time ago that 3 was the optimal size for an ASW TF. Something to do with attack routines... "

I recall it as being 4. Damn, gonna have to go a-lookin....

My recollection matches Lokasenna's...4 max...3 optimum

[Lecivius]

Could be, not arguing, us senile types need things in front of us. And I'm not the best at searching.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Could be, not arguing, us senile types need things in front of us. And I'm not the best at searching.

The thread was some months ago. I want to say fall 2013.

[czert2]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Don't worry about these losses. You will get so many super E soon you won't know what to do with them.

That said, I'd use larger ASW TFs. Four works best for me. There is a reason they limited the size on these. The more ships you have looking (with commanders that have high naval skill) the more often you'll find the subs. Also, Use night and day air search plus ASW air search. Make sure your search pilots are well trained. I also train ASW planes in low naval skill.

Your kill ratios will soon far exceed historical plausibility, so if you're feeling like this is a rough period, hang in there. It'll soon be your opponent complaining he's sling too many subs. And he'll have a good point, as evidenced by the numbers above.

Which is best metod to train pilots in asw/lown, idealy at same time. 40% on asw, 40% train 20% rest ?
or rotate training - asw/lown ? while second unit do actual asw ?
and how much night flying improve decetion of known subs ? i allways thought that without radar fiding sub at night is well....like winning jackpot.

[crsutton]

Well, you won't need low naval with ASW warfare. The attacks and hits seem to be based on strictly the ASW rating. Low naval is useful to have for other shipping though. I train 100% to where I get where I want in one skill and then switch to the other. I don't really think it matters much. You should never need to rest when training.

Searching at night helps. Even for the Japanese player. I do it if I can spare the units.

[seille]

Thanks for the tips guys.
A 3-ship-ASW-TF was the recommended way. I remember that i´ve read it here and if i remember right it was one of the devs who wrote it.
It has to do with possible follow up attacks by the other ships. In my game this rarely works with ASW-TF. If then with warship TF´s with a bunch of DDs.

What Jim wrote might be a good tip. Stay in range of air ASW and close to a port. Often my "E" are hit outside air ASW range when they tried to patrol
on shipping lanes. A few i lost close to a port in air-asw-range.

But there is still the incredible aiming ability of allied sub commanders. They even hit 29 knot APD and they don´t need 29 attempts to score a hit like my japs do......
All i all if i get my super-E there will be little mercy on my side if i hit a enemy sub

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

"I believe someone posted some time ago that 3 was the optimal size for an ASW TF. Something to do with attack routines... "

I recall it as being 4. Damn, gonna have to go a-lookin....

It was Symon, and I think he knows. It was about six months ago, give or take.

[Bullwinkle58]

If you read the manual chapter on DL (I did last week and I had misremembered a few things) you'll see that there is almost no way for an ASW surface asset to find a sub without air assistance. OK, one way:

"Torpedo wake off the port quarter!!" (That's the port look-out. His mother did love him so.)

Moving TF escorts or ASW TF members in this era had terrible passive systems. Their best hope was to see a scope and that's very tough, even in daylight. Once a sub was known to be around, and a wake gave a rough, though temporary, datum, active echo ranging could commence and it was a more fair fight, given the sub's low submerged speed and the ASW skimmers' ability to use tactical nets to coordinate runs.

But the going-in attack initiative was all the sub's. It's not uncommon in the game to get a text line that the CO has decided that Japanese target isn't worth a torpedo. Very realistic.

[wdolson]

I always thought an ASW task force would be using active sonar all the time. Just an assumption on my part though. I never really investigated ASW procedures for that era.

Bill

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I always thought an ASW task force would be using active sonar all the time. Just an assumption on my part though. I never really investigated ASW procedures for that era.

Bill

Some did. I made the crews feel better. Active is like radar though; you can hear it a LONG way farther off than it can get a return on you. And attacks were made from the beam to maybe the quarter. It was rare for a USN sub at least to wait in front of a convoy and let it run over them. I think U-boats did this more often, but very different issues there as well as convoy sizes. USN subs detected, surfaced if needed, and did an end-around to get in front and on the beam. If at night they waited on the surface at battlestations for the target to move up the track. If daylight they dove , observed, refined the zig pattern, hoped there wouldn't be a zig away.

[geofflambert]

My feeling is that once the American torpedoes (for subs) improve in late '42 it's a bad idea to have "routine" ASW patrols except in ports. The American subs will sink a lot of your ASW ships and you may not sink a single one of their subs. Having well trained squadrons patrolling is much better, I think. I'm liking the Lilys in many situations, and the Anns and Marys in tight choke points. Save those E boats for escort of high value targets, CVs if the Es are fast enough, troop convoys etc. The more you expose your ASW ships to his subs, the more he will sink. You'll lose a plane once in a while but they will get some hits and suppress his subs to some extent. Use SCs when you must to keep a lane open for loaded convoys, etc. It will be quite rare for them to do significant damage to subs but all too common for them to get sunk by those subs.