Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

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Miller
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Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Miller »

So I decide to bombard Clark Field to disrupt the troops there the night before a deliberate attack. I realised I had to send the TF through Bataan on the way and run the gauntlet of its CD guns and mines, but as it is out of supply I figured only a few shots would be fired and I had 4 DMS in the TF to sweep a patch clear (or so I thought).....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval Gun Fire at Bataan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

50 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, on fire
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Fuso
DD Yanagi, Shell hits 1
DD Karii, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yomogi, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tsuta, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Susuki, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Fubuki, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Inazuma, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ikazuchi, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akatsuki, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-12, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-11, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, heavy damage
DMS W-10, Shell hits 2, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-9, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

Not one message of mines being swept, and to add insult to injury the TF aborts the bombardment. Did I do something wrong?
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Chickenboy
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Chickenboy »

I've been frustrated by my AMc and DMS inability to consistently clear Merak, resulting in unnecessary mine hits on some of my ships. They'd been working the field over for several days, "finding" nothing and not effectively clearing diddly.

After I got my xAKs and SS mined, they were able to effectively sweep the hex. I didn't do anything 'different'.

My guess? It has to do with whether a minefield is 'spotted'. For fields that I *know* are there, next time I'll just run a garbage scow or two into the field, take the hits and identify the minefield and THEN send in the sweepers.

ETA: In your case, I would venture that the presence of the DMSs in the bombardment TF interfered with their ability to be used in the sweeping mission per se. I'm not surprised that the TF was mined-I would have wanted to send 'em in ahead of the TF in a dedicated TF for the sweeping purpose.
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pontiouspilot
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by pontiouspilot »

1. That is a tough straight to hope to not get creamed by mines and coastal artillery.
2. I would have swept in a dedicated minesweeping TF for a few days before attempting to send the big boys in. I am sure someone more knowledgeable will advise on the efficiency of DMS when embedded with regular TF versus dedicated.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

4.2.1.3 STRAITS
A separate attribute of some hexside is the presence of a “strait”, or narrow channel, through
which ships must pass to move from one hex to an adjacent hex when performing naval
movement. There are two classes of “strait” on the map – “wide” straits and “narrow” straits.
Straits affect naval units in several ways:
»» Vulnerability to mines: Task Forces moving through straits are more likely
to hit mines that are located in the hexes either side of the strait hexside.


20.3 APPENDIX C – STRAITS
There are two classes of strait hexsides in the game – wide and narrow. Of these two, narrow
straits have the greatest effect, so are listed here. Wide straits are numerous – they occur
in any location where the movement path between two adjacent hexes is restricted (say
by peninsulas and islands), but not so restricted that ships are forced to navigate a narrow
channel between two pieces of land. For a detailed description of the effects of the two types,
see section 4.2.1.3.
Narrow straits are located between these hexes:
104,57 (Shimonoseki) and 104,58
106,58 (Hiroshima/Kure) and 106,59
107,58 (Fukuyama) and 107,59 (Takamatsu)
107,59 (Takamatsu) and 108,58 (Okayama)
107,59 (Takamatsu) and 108,59 (Kobe)
113,61 (Yokohama/Yokosuka) and 114,60 (Tokyo)
210,51 and 211,51
211,51 and 212,52 (Seattle)
211,53 (Tacoma) and 212,52 (Seattle)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 218,70 (San Francisco)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 219,69 (Stockton)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 219,70 (Alameda)
218,70 (San Francisco) and 219,70 (Alameda)
56,104 (Soerabaja) and 55,105
56,104 (Soerabaja) and 56,105
78,77 (Bataan) and 79,77 (Manila)
80,171 and 81,171 (Portsea)
81,171 (Portsea) and 81,172
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witpqs
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

4.2.1.3 STRAITS
A separate attribute of some hexside is the presence of a “strait”, or narrow channel, through
which ships must pass to move from one hex to an adjacent hex when performing naval
movement. There are two classes of “strait” on the map – “wide” straits and “narrow” straits.
Straits affect naval units in several ways:
»» Vulnerability to mines: Task Forces moving through straits are more likely
to hit mines that are located in the hexes either side of the strait hexside.


20.3 APPENDIX C – STRAITS
There are two classes of strait hexsides in the game – wide and narrow. Of these two, narrow
straits have the greatest effect, so are listed here. Wide straits are numerous – they occur
in any location where the movement path between two adjacent hexes is restricted (say
by peninsulas and islands), but not so restricted that ships are forced to navigate a narrow
channel between two pieces of land. For a detailed description of the effects of the two types,
see section 4.2.1.3.
Narrow straits are located between these hexes:
104,57 (Shimonoseki) and 104,58
106,58 (Hiroshima/Kure) and 106,59
107,58 (Fukuyama) and 107,59 (Takamatsu)
107,59 (Takamatsu) and 108,58 (Okayama)
107,59 (Takamatsu) and 108,59 (Kobe)
113,61 (Yokohama/Yokosuka) and 114,60 (Tokyo)
210,51 and 211,51
211,51 and 212,52 (Seattle)
211,53 (Tacoma) and 212,52 (Seattle)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 218,70 (San Francisco)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 219,69 (Stockton)
218,69 (Mare Island) and 219,70 (Alameda)
218,70 (San Francisco) and 219,70 (Alameda)
56,104 (Soerabaja) and 55,105
56,104 (Soerabaja) and 56,105
78,77 (Bataan) and 79,77 (Manila)
80,171 and 81,171 (Portsea)
81,171 (Portsea) and 81,172
Yeah, and that was not a mine sweeping mission TF, and they were under CD fire.
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Miller
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Miller »

Lesson learned[:(]
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Sardaukar
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Sardaukar »

It's really brave (and unwise) to challenge CD and minefields in that hex. Was one of the best defended place in Pacific against such things.

Massive CD installments, control detonated mines, whatnot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Drum_ ... le_Island) (only one part of defenses....)


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Miller
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Miller »

Oh yes I was aware of the risks, but I thought with the defenders out of supply the CD guns would be much less effective, as was the case as the mines did all the damage to my ships.
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Sardaukar
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Sardaukar »

Could it be that Bombardment TF uses Full Speed to get to position? Difficult to sweep mines with that.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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jmalter
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by jmalter »

Thanks, Sardaukar, for the really nice late-war picture of Fort Drum, the Army's 'concrete battleship'.

I agree, you need dedicated MSW TFs & 'spotting' on the minefield, to reduce the minefields. In the face of CD gunfire, this means you'll lose a lot of DMS & AM. The Allies have plenty of them, I have no idea of the IJN's capability. I would only ever expect MSWs in a BombardmentTF to have limited effectiveness.

You can include DDs in an MSW TF to give some limited counterbattery capability, but it's likely they'll just get ruined, too. Sending BBs into a mined area is just an employment garantee for shipyard workers.

Does anyone know if TFcommander / ship-captain NavSkill, or TF speed, has any effect on an MSW TF's capability?
Alfred
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Thanks, Sardaukar, for the really nice late-war picture of Fort Drum, the Army's 'concrete battleship'.

I agree, you need dedicated MSW TFs & 'spotting' on the minefield, to reduce the minefields. In the face of CD gunfire, this means you'll lose a lot of DMS & AM. The Allies have plenty of them, I have no idea of the IJN's capability. I would only ever expect MSWs in a BombardmentTF to have limited effectiveness.

You can include DDs in an MSW TF to give some limited counterbattery capability, but it's likely they'll just get ruined, too. Sending BBs into a mined area is just an employment garantee for shipyard workers.

Does anyone know if TFcommander / ship-captain NavSkill, or TF speed, has any effect on an MSW TF's capability?

Yes.

A very good thread on the subject is this one:

tm.asp?m=2845289&mpage=1&key=mine%2Csweeping&#2847202

from 2011 because Symon makes several detailed posts.

According to Don Bowen, the factors which impact on minesweeping are:
  • size of minefield
  • detection level of minefield
  • hex characteristics (is it deep/shallow water or reef)
  • fuel levels of the minesweepers
  • crew experience
  • captain's capabilities
  • enemy actions
  • good luck

A point often overlooked is that minesweeper TFs on purpose stay in a detected minefield in order to sweep the mines. Other Tfs, eg surface combat, amphibious etc, move through a detected minefield towards their destination. They have no intention to remain in the minefield per se.

It follows from the above that emplacing dedicated minesweeping type vessels in a non minewarfare TF is not as efficient as placing them in a dedicated minesweeping TF.

Accordingly, what the OP indicates is that:

1. the minefield had not been previously detected
2. the impact of the minefield was accentuated by the location being a narrow strait
3. the type of TF involved meant that the additional increase in minefield detection levels outlined in s.10.1.1.4 of the manual was not possible as the TF travelled through the hex to get to its destination and therefore the DMS embedded in the TF could not be "detached" to widen the path through the minefield

Alfred
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castor troy
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Miller

So I decide to bombard Clark Field to disrupt the troops there the night before a deliberate attack. I realised I had to send the TF through Bataan on the way and run the gauntlet of its CD guns and mines, but as it is out of supply I figured only a few shots would be fired and I had 4 DMS in the TF to sweep a patch clear (or so I thought).....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval Gun Fire at Bataan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

50 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, on fire
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Fuso
DD Yanagi, Shell hits 1
DD Karii, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yomogi, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tsuta, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Susuki, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Fubuki, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Inazuma, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ikazuchi, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akatsuki, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-12, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-11, Shell hits 1, Mine hits 2, heavy damage
DMS W-10, Shell hits 2, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DMS W-9, Mine hits 1, heavy damage

Not one message of mines being swept, and to add insult to injury the TF aborts the bombardment. Did I do something wrong?


from my experience you are far better off not having DMS in your TF if you want to do what you attempted to do. It was exactly the other way around of what you expected, the DMS literally drawn your task force into the minefield, not clearing a path through it. I have to admit that I have never seen such a bad result in AE but similar ones. If you leave the DMS aside, you will see one, perhaps two ships hitting mines. Mostly none to hit mines. But having DMS in the task force guarantees for more hits. Try this without DMS a hundred times and you probably would never see such a bad result.
czert2
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by czert2 »

well, moving thought heavyly mined narrow stait is allways bad idea, especialy if enemy can fire at you. To put in simply - if your forces will net be heavyly damaged/sunk by mines, enemy CD will do it.
I did sometzhing similiar, but in this case it was only minesweeping TF with order to remain at station, it was 6 DMS TF... only to get 2 sunk by mines (no chance to save them due to damage and japanese DC) and 4 others sunk by CD fire (same).
Mayby if ordered just "pass by" they will not get so heavyly hammered by CD, but what the point then if they have just few hours for work ? they will not clear enough of mines from that big minefield.
After this catastrophe it was decided to clear mines after CD - and resisance on batan - is gone, so ships have fast way to port in case they hit mine to minize chance of sinking.
And yes, CD is narow stait is especialy deadly, setuped few ASW to hunt enemy subs, set reaction to 6, only to see my 4 sc asw runned there, with no damage to enemy sub, but 3 of 4 heavyly damaged from cd fire.
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geofflambert
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RE: Why did my DMS do nothing (other than sink)

Post by geofflambert »

When bombarding, your chance of hitting mines is low because you can do so from many ks of yards. If you get into a surface action, you may be drawn into a minefield, so don't do that if you can avoid it. The DMSs contributed (I believe) precisely zero to your effort.

I'm having a second look at this post and I'm thinking it was irrelevant to your situation so never mind. It does apply in some simpler situations

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