Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

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Lokasenna
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Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by Lokasenna »

Ok, so I'm having an issue here. It's likely not going to make a difference in my game situation, which I will be comfortable posting details on once another week or so of game time has gone by, but here's the scoop.

Ship has moderate System damage and lots of Floatation damage with moderate Engine damage, making it really hard to get away due to low speed. In a run from a vulnerable port, to go hide out at a dot base (so Size 0 port), it suffers some more minor floatation. About 10 points of minor damage. I realize that in a size 0 port with no naval support and no AR, the ship's repairs are entirely dependent upon the crew, however I figure that it will slowly repair. It does for a day or two (gives an estimate of 60 days at first), but then repairs stall and estimates change to "0#" while Tracker says "repairs completed on ship X at Y base."

Now, at sea a ship can make repairs to minor damage. However, apparently this isn't possible when sitting in a port. This doesn't make sense. Why would it be easier to repair a ship out at sea than sitting at anchor in some bay somewhere?

Is it because, when disbanded in port (to prevent detection...), the ship is considered "offline" even in Readiness mode and therefore there isn't power for pumps, etc? I've dug through the Ship Repair 101 guide again, and due to the level of damage repairs would have been really hard, however the ship should have been generating about 8-9 Repair Points per day from the ship's experience. It would have taken a very long time to fix the minor points of damage, but I think I could have left the ship disbanded in that port for a very long time as it was never detected. Enemy ships and planes running/flying all around, and she was right there hiding under their noses for weeks. No real danger that my opponent was going to take the base, either.


I'll post up some information, but does anybody else think that the behavior I've just described is extremely weird? The first day out at sea, the ship repaired TWO points of minor floatation damage (she also suffered 2 System damage). Bug or WAD? I understand that repairs should be next to impossible at size 0 ports, however the minor floatation damage being repaired at sea but not when disbanded on the coastline just irks me.
wdolson
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by wdolson »

You shouldn't be able to disband in a 0 size port. That may be a bug.

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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

You shouldn't be able to disband in a 0 size port. That may be a bug.

Bill
That was changed a long time ago.
jmalter
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by jmalter »

I don't recall exactly from Repair 101, but doesn't a disbanded ship lose its crew/captain damage-control availability? Would placing the ship in a TF (& giving it a v. high NavSkill captain) allow it to use its internal DC ability to better effect, at a cost of increased vulnerability?

W/ no NavS or repair ships at a size0 port, there's nothing to help it repair. Still, "any port in a storm," & if you've made it to the port, at least you're not accruing add'l transit-damage.
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: jmalter

I don't recall exactly from Repair 101, but doesn't a disbanded ship lose its crew/captain damage-control availability? Would placing the ship in a TF (& giving it a v. high NavSkill captain) allow it to use its internal DC ability to better effect, at a cost of increased vulnerability?

W/ no NavS or repair ships at a size0 port, there's nothing to help it repair. Still, "any port in a storm," & if you've made it to the port, at least you're not accruing add'l transit-damage.

Right, that's what I figured about not accruing more transit damage. Plus I didn't want to get sunk at sea by Netties. They'd have to detect at the port and he'd have to set port strike there. This is a dot base that people often forget even exists.

I didn't see anything about the crew experience repairs being lost while disbanded. I was fairly certain that the repair points from experience was in the port repair section anyway, as damage repairs at sea are based on damage control rolls and not repair points, right?

But that's what's sticking with me. Weeks and weeks going nowhere, 0 knots, at anchor, and they can't pump out any of that water that is represented in minor floatation damage. But man, 1 day at sea and they sure can pump out 2 points worth of it! It seems backwards.
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by LoBaron »

Lokasenna, I think jmalter is referring to something different. And I tend to agree with him.

As I see it, a ship at anchorage is considered to have only a required minimum of crew on board. Enough to keep it in a certain state of readiness, but repairs are mainly carried out by teams provided by the port itself. It might be a bug, or an unwanted sideeffect of the repair algorithm for disbanded ships, but not sure I´d want this "fixed". [;)]
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by czert2 »

from 101 guide :


9. Integrity Repair Point Sources

IRP are generated by five sources:

• Shipyards
• Ports
• Repair ships (includes Tenders for their respective ship types)
• Naval support squads
• Ship crews

Some of these IRP sources will pool together their generated IRP at the same location for use in the same turn to ships in certain “repair modes”. Others do not. Just like WRP, unused IRP are not carried forward to the next turn but the progress work made in one turn to partially remove a POD is carried over to the next turn. “Repair ships” must be disbanded in the port in order to generate any IRP.

IRP generated by shipyards are expended only on ships in “shipyard repair mode”, undergoing repair in the shipyard. Ships in “shipyard repair mode” only use IRP generated by the shipyard, they do not benefit from IRP generated by other sources. Repairs to ships not in “shipyard repair mode” do not benefit from any IRP generated by the shipyard.

Ships in “repair ship mode” will benefit only from IRP generated by the relevant “repair ships” (see tables F and G below for the relevant “repair ship”). When there are ships in “repair ship mode”, IRP generated by repair ships are not expended on ships in any other repair mode. However, if there are no ships in “repair ship mode”, the IRP generated by “repair ships” will be directed automatically by the “repair manager” to ships in “pierside mode” only, they will not be expended on ships in “readiness mode”.

The IRP generated by ports and naval support squads are pooled together and are expended each turn on ships in “pierside mode” or “readiness mode”.

Ship crew generated IRP are expended only on their own ship which can be in either “pierside mode” or “readiness mode”.

To simplify the presentation of the amount of IRP generated by the five sources, I have split them into three different tables.

so that any ship disbanded in 0 part should be able to repair itself - with only crew repair at source of repair.
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Lokasenna, I think jmalter is referring to something different. And I tend to agree with him.

As I see it, a ship at anchorage is considered to have only a required minimum of crew on board. Enough to keep it in a certain state of readiness, but repairs are mainly carried out by teams provided by the port itself. It might be a bug, or an unwanted sideeffect of the repair algorithm for disbanded ships, but not sure I´d want this "fixed". [;)]

I'm really just confused as to what's going on. Game entirely aside. Near as I can tell, it should have been accumulating repair points while at pier side or readiness mode in that size 0 port.
ORIGINAL: czert2

from 101 guide :


9. Integrity Repair Point Sources

IRP are generated by five sources:

• Shipyards
• Ports
• Repair ships (includes Tenders for their respective ship types)
• Naval support squads
• Ship crews

Some of these IRP sources will pool together their generated IRP at the same location for use in the same turn to ships in certain “repair modes”. Others do not. Just like WRP, unused IRP are not carried forward to the next turn but the progress work made in one turn to partially remove a POD is carried over to the next turn. “Repair ships” must be disbanded in the port in order to generate any IRP.

IRP generated by shipyards are expended only on ships in “shipyard repair mode”, undergoing repair in the shipyard. Ships in “shipyard repair mode” only use IRP generated by the shipyard, they do not benefit from IRP generated by other sources. Repairs to ships not in “shipyard repair mode” do not benefit from any IRP generated by the shipyard.

Ships in “repair ship mode” will benefit only from IRP generated by the relevant “repair ships” (see tables F and G below for the relevant “repair ship”). When there are ships in “repair ship mode”, IRP generated by repair ships are not expended on ships in any other repair mode. However, if there are no ships in “repair ship mode”, the IRP generated by “repair ships” will be directed automatically by the “repair manager” to ships in “pierside mode” only, they will not be expended on ships in “readiness mode”.

The IRP generated by ports and naval support squads are pooled together and are expended each turn on ships in “pierside mode” or “readiness mode”.

Ship crew generated IRP are expended only on their own ship which can be in either “pierside mode” or “readiness mode”.

To simplify the presentation of the amount of IRP generated by the five sources, I have split them into three different tables.

so that any ship disbanded in 0 part should be able to repair itself - with only crew repair at source of repair.

So why would it generate none? I mean yeah, it would have only been 8 points per turn or so, and then whatever modifiers occur to get higher or lower values (the repair density thing - notice how BBs require hundreds of repair points, yet DDs and cruisers much less). So it would have taken a very long time to get the 10 minor floatation points fixed, but it would have occurred.


I wish Tracker showed Repair Points accumulated in the ship repairs screen. I think I will go back to the turn it disbanded and the 1-2 after that when it had a repair estimate and see what it had for points, then compare to when it was frozen.
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by LoBaron »

Could be something multiplying with port size 0?

But could also be that you got 0 supplies at that port?

Asking because of
Original: Repair 101

Table I: Supply of repair workers seeking employment

Port size 1 generates 8 RW
Port size 2 generates 34 RW
Port size 3 generates 81 RW
Port size 4 generates 152 RW
Port size 5 generates 250 RW
Port size 6 generates 378 RW
Port size 7 generates 539 RW
Port size 8 generates 736 RW
Port size 9 generates 972 RW
Port size 10 generates 1250 RW

Exemplar I: (see discussion following table J)


Table J: Ship demand for repair workers for ships in “normal repair priority”

Ship in “pierside mode”, demand = [(damage x 10) + (Ship tonnage/500)]
Ship in “readiness mode”, demand = [(damage x 20) + (Ship tonnage/500)]

TBH I never attempted to observe repair rate at bases out of supply. Maybe it is just tied to that?
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I'm really just confused as to what's going on. Game entirely aside. Near as I can tell, it should have been accumulating repair points while at pier side or readiness mode in that size 0 port.
........
So why would it generate none? I mean yeah, it would have only been 8 points per turn or so, and then whatever modifiers occur to get higher or lower values (the repair density thing - notice how BBs require hundreds of repair points, yet DDs and cruisers much less). So it would have taken a very long time to get the 10 minor floatation points fixed, but it would have occurred.
A port-0 is exactly that .. "0". Nothing, rien, nada, nichts, nichevo. No docks, no bars, no dancing girls ... no yard dogs.

A disbanded ship is exactly that. An anchored inert object, with everything turned off; boilers, motors, generators, air conditioning, ice cream freezers ... no power for any kind of damage control, and no piers for pierside, no yard dogs for anything else.

To get damage control, make your ship into a TF. It doesn't have to go anywhere, just sit there, but it turns on the power supplies (i.e., it invokes the damage control algorithm, which simply disbanding in port does not do). Destination - same base, Do Not Disband - on, Speed - Cruise. If you have the damage control routine you also get the "possible bad things happen" routine. They are part and parcel of one another.

Ciao. John
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Symon
A port-0 is exactly that .. "0". Nothing, rien, nada, nichts, nichevo. No docks, no bars, no dancing girls ... no yard dogs.

A disbanded ship is exactly that. An anchored inert object, with everything turned off; boilers, motors, generators, air conditioning, ice cream freezers ... no power for any kind of damage control, and no piers for pierside, no yard dogs for anything else.

To get damage control, make your ship into a TF. It doesn't have to go anywhere, just sit there, but it turns on the power supplies (i.e., it invokes the damage control algorithm, which simply disbanding in port does not do). Destination - same base, Do Not Disband - on, Speed - Cruise. If you have the damage control routine you also get the "possible bad things happen" routine. They are part and parcel of one another.

Ciao. John
John,
That makes sense. If the boilers are down. there's no power. And if there is no power, then no repairs. If the boilers are lit, then it can be spotted as it isn't all that hidden.

Thanks for clarifying.
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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by wdolson »

The only things I know about this are from things I've read. I'm sure the old salts know better than I do.

I read a history of the USS Dale a couple of years ago. It went into some detail about the situation the Farraguts found themselves in on the morning of Dec 7, 1941. If a ship ties up at a dock and disbands (in game terms), it connects up to the port's power and shuts everything down. The crew may do minor repairs on the ship, but all the facilities come from the port.

On Dec 7, the Farraguts were nested together out in the middle of the harbor. There were no port facilities (power, water, etc.) to take advantage of, so one ship kept its boilers lit and provided power to the other ships in the nest. I forget which one was powered, but the rest of the squadron scrambled to crash start their boilers. Once everyone got their boilers lit the entire squadron made for the open sea. The Dale distracted quite a few Vals from the second wave that tried to sink her in the ship channel.

The game engine really can't support this sort of complexity. If a ship was the only ship disbanded in a harbor with no facilities, in the real world it would keep its boilers lit unless they needed to be shut down for emergency repairs. However, I think anchored in a TF within the port is a good model for the condition of the ship's boilers in this situation.

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RE: Damaged ships not repairing in Size 0 ports, but can repair at sea

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Symon
A port-0 is exactly that .. "0". Nothing, rien, nada, nichts, nichevo. No docks, no bars, no dancing girls ... no yard dogs.

A disbanded ship is exactly that. An anchored inert object, with everything turned off; boilers, motors, generators, air conditioning, ice cream freezers ... no power for any kind of damage control, and no piers for pierside, no yard dogs for anything else.

To get damage control, make your ship into a TF. It doesn't have to go anywhere, just sit there, but it turns on the power supplies (i.e., it invokes the damage control algorithm, which simply disbanding in port does not do). Destination - same base, Do Not Disband - on, Speed - Cruise. If you have the damage control routine you also get the "possible bad things happen" routine. They are part and parcel of one another.

Ciao. John
John,
That makes sense. If the boilers are down. there's no power. And if there is no power, then no repairs. If the boilers are lit, then it can be spotted as it isn't all that hidden.

Thanks for clarifying.

This is basically the answer I was looking for, thanks Symon. If the boilers are off, no power. No power, no pumps. Makes sense.

RE: supplies at the port - I did ship some in via sub transport to see if 0 supplies was affecting it. Didn't do anything.
ORIGINAL: wdolson

The only things I know about this are from things I've read. I'm sure the old salts know better than I do.

I read a history of the USS Dale a couple of years ago. It went into some detail about the situation the Farraguts found themselves in on the morning of Dec 7, 1941. If a ship ties up at a dock and disbands (in game terms), it connects up to the port's power and shuts everything down. The crew may do minor repairs on the ship, but all the facilities come from the port.

On Dec 7, the Farraguts were nested together out in the middle of the harbor. There were no port facilities (power, water, etc.) to take advantage of, so one ship kept its boilers lit and provided power to the other ships in the nest. I forget which one was powered, but the rest of the squadron scrambled to crash start their boilers. Once everyone got their boilers lit the entire squadron made for the open sea. The Dale distracted quite a few Vals from the second wave that tried to sink her in the ship channel.

The game engine really can't support this sort of complexity. If a ship was the only ship disbanded in a harbor with no facilities, in the real world it would keep its boilers lit unless they needed to be shut down for emergency repairs. However, I think anchored in a TF within the port is a good model for the condition of the ship's boilers in this situation.

Bill

Yeah, no "free lunch" then. Can't hide in a dot base outside of a TF if I want repairs to happen. I know that ships, in the real war, did go hide on some random bit of coastline (seeming to remember something about a DD either in the SE DEI or Ironbottom Sound?) - but not a BB. Pretty hard to camouflage a 35000-ton ship to fit in with the coastline. It's a bit different with a DD or something.
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