Is it over for the USSR?

[garydj]

Hi

I'm a newbie and playing the Soviets and it is Turn 15 (25 Sep 41). The Germans have taken Leningrad, Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Odessa and Tula. Kharkov is surrounded and will fall next turn. If I'm lucky, I will hold Orel, Kursk, Stalino and Sevastapol until the mud hits, but it will be touch and go and I'm unlikely to hold all these cities.

The losses to date have been horrendous. The Red Army is outnumbered in manpower, tanks and artillery. The only category where we have numbers on our side is in aircraft, which seem to play only a minor part in the game.

I'm wondering whether it is worth continuing with this game. It looks to me that the Axis will achieve automatic victory in the summer of '42. They are currently on 205 VP and about to add Kharkov to the total.

Since our game will go into a hiatus while the German player moves house, I'd be grateful for advice on whether I should concede and we start a new game.

Cheers

Gary

[loki100]

sounds ok to me

If you can hold Stalino-Rostov that is actually quite a good improvement on a 'normal' 1941.

You'll be surprised how fast the Red Army recovers in the mud turns, even if your opponent attacks in the snow turns its likely to be limited to specific objectives, and even if you are using the mild blizzard there is going to be at least one sector where you can inflict serious damage (or regain a lot of terrain).

Coping with 1942, esp if you have used the mild blizzard, is a different set of problems and there are 4-5 AARs (current and recent) that will give you a good idea of what to look out for

[garydj]

Thanks, loki100.

Sorry to sound stupid, but what is an AAR?

Gary

[loki100]

Hi

sorry (been hanging around this sort of place too often), it stands for After Action Report, basically a report (with varying levels of detail) about a game.

Good ones on what to watch out for in 1942 are Stef78's 2 frogs in mild blizzard, Tarhunnas' A snapshot AAR, CaliJP's Grand Campaign and my own Great Patriotic War. SigUp, my opponent presents the other side as Struggling in the East

They should all give you some ideas about what the Germans are capable of in 1942 (assuming a relatively balanced 1941)

Roger

[garydj]

Many thanks for these links, Roger.

We are playing with mild blizzard option, so I'm not looking forward to the summer of '42. I lost all of the factories in Tula and a bunch of heavy industry and armaments factories elsewhere, so I'm not sure of the Soviet capacity to rebuild.

I'm surprised that the loss of Leningrad, Tula, Kiev, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye and Odessa is an OK result for the Soviets to the end of September '41. This is a lot worse than history. And I may yet lose Stalino and Sevastapol, although I hope to hold Moscow and Rostov.

I note you decided to play with reduced logistics in the Great Patriotic War. I wonder why the designers haven't toned down the logistics for both sides, since they seem to like to tinker with the game?

I've made a lot of mistakes in my game. If we were to start again, I'd do quite a few things differently.

Cheers

Gary

[loki100]

Hi

I'm in the same position, vs the AI you don't lose many units (it tends to rout you from pockets) so you don't get into the awful mess with armaments that a human opponent will inflict, so there is a lot I did that I'd do differently - not least I have a better appreciation of how to set up small rearguards in good terrain that can very much slow the Germans.

In the game, at the moment, the main issue is that you can't hold Leningrad against a determined axis (well you can if you do the unrealistic trick of moving SW Front up there), so the in-game reality is to make it hard to take (time) and accept the loss. I personally think Moscow is the key. In part there is so much production there that it makes a mess of your rail capacity and production if you have to move it in the summer-autumn (you can move it at your leisure in winter).

The decision to reduce logistics came out of one of the numerous simulation vs game threads that appear every now and then. I personally sit in the simulation camp and think its good to allow a lot of variation around a realistic core of constraints. With SigUp, we did a couple of plays (Road to Smolensk and the smaller Moscow counterattack) using 75% and it was too brutal. We both found that offensives just ran out of steam too quickly. So the 90% is a compromise and so far it seems to work ok.

There seems to be a bit of a consensus against using the settings which I find odd. One that I'd be interested to play around with is to reduce the Soviet transport value - that way there is a need for a more active defense and it stops the approach come 1943 of whole fronts railing around.

My feeling is that with the recent clean up of the code, and mild blizzard, the game has a decent balance. Not least, 1942 is starting to look like the decisive year rather than 1941.

R

[swkuh]

KUDOS for the questions and Loki100's answers.

Personally, I play Germans vs. AI with 100, 90, 90, 90, 100 as the Axis balance factors. Like Loki, I cannot understand the communities apparent distaste for adjusting the game's balance. Expecting developers to get the balance just right for all players is too much.

Might try reducing Soviet transport value next iteration, as Loki suggests. I'll also try increased Axis morale as compensation for the infamous 1:1::2:1 rule.

[gingerbread]

The reason that changing the settings is not widely used in P vs P is that there are non-linear effects for even small changes. For example, morale does not only change the morale of the units, it also changes the final mod CV. It impacts twice.

[garydj]

Thanks for the comments and advice, Roger. I've decided to keep playing the game. If nothing else, it will give my opponent the satisfaction of a clear win come summer '42. [8D]

If I ever start another game, I might try both sides on 90% logistics and 90% transport.

Cheers

Gary

[charlie0311]

hi gary,

I have 5 months exp with wite now and am playing my first human opponent, for the first time. I'm the soviet player. We are both inexperienced and are at turn 14.

i would suggest you guys call your present game and start a new one. All that fine tuning and house rules are for guys who just prefer to do it that way.

My suggestion for the soviet player is to avoid combat until it can be more "on your terms". It should be more fun for you to figure that out, more or less, on your own. i can be more detailed if you wish.

I had played axis v. ai quite a bit, so I had a pretty good idea of axis capabilities. Therefore I was able to "screen" the axis advance without getting pocketed (very little anyway). As of mid September I am now able to counter attack the advancing axis units. I will hold Leningrad, Moscow, the Stalino area cities, and Sevastopol. As of t14 I have less (barely) than 1000K casualties.

We are using version .11, FOW, random weather, all normal for set up options. The usual stuff.

charlie

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

hi gary,

I have 5 months exp with wite now and am playing my first human opponent, for the first time. I'm the soviet player. We are both inexperienced and are at turn 14.

i would suggest you guys call your present game and start a new one.
....

charlie

Hi

You sound incredibly sure with this advice (and may well be right). Could you offer an explanation as to why you think he is in such a disastrous position? As in my original response, just going by the various AARs (& my own experience) this sounds pretty usual with a lot to decide in the final stages of 1941, so I'd be interested to see you develop the argument a little (all helps everyone come to understand how the bits and pieces fit together)

[charlie0311]

Hi Loki,

I happen to admire your inputs very much and also your enthusiasm for the game. Sometimes I have difficulty understanding your precise meaning so I will try to answer sentence by sentence.

1) I'm not so sure. My present results are v. an inexperienced axis opponent (no Lvov pocket and most of NW front escaped, for example).
2) Just using his own description of his situation.
3) This is a little harder. Let my say first that I think it's more fun for the player to develop their own tactical doctrine with only some general guidance suggestions. By screening i mean a double line of zoc units, the checkerboard defense, just a little further back. As the axis closes up to this line withdraw again. Think movement points. Yes, you will be doing a lot of guessing. All, if possible, of the reinforcements t3 and 4 go to the Moscow or Leningrad area to dig in. How much is going to depend on the outcome of turn one.

The general guidance I refer to would go something like this. To win at war the first objective is to destroy the enemy formations (in detail if possible). However, in wite (grand campaign) I submit the soviet player doesn't have the ability to do so. Therefore, since you can't start destroying the enemy from the "git go" (the axis can), then the soviet player should concentrate on not being destroyed. So run.

Fighting "more on your terms" means when the axis supply situation is stressed (deeper into mother russia) and you can attack from prepared positions (entrenchments) with a carpet of entrenchments to fall back on. Kind of like Kursk 43.

I am aware of the many AAR's where the soviet side manages to hold on and eventually go over to the offensive by 43 or so.

charlie

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: garydj63


Hi

I'm a newbie and playing the Soviets and it is Turn 15 (25 Sep 41). The Germans have taken Leningrad, Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Odessa and Tula. Kharkov is surrounded and will fall next turn. If I'm lucky, I will hold Orel, Kursk, Stalino and Sevastapol until the mud hits, but it will be touch and go and I'm unlikely to hold all these cities.

The losses to date have been horrendous. The Red Army is outnumbered in manpower, tanks and artillery. The only category where we have numbers on our side is in aircraft, which seem to play only a minor part in the game.

I'm wondering whether it is worth continuing with this game. It looks to me that the Axis will achieve automatic victory in the summer of '42. They are currently on 205 VP and about to add Kharkov to the total.

Since our game will go into a hiatus while the German player moves house, I'd be grateful for advice on whether I should concede and we start a new game.

Cheers

Gary

You are doing just fine...better, in fact, than most. Keep your army safe from here on out, hold Moscow, and you should achieve a draw at minimum. Just be careful during blizzard and don't overextend yourself...

[caliJP]

Gary what are your losses and what is your OOB?

[garydj]

Hi CaliJP

I'm not sure how to do screen captures, but here are the main figures.

Losses:
......... Axis .... Soviet
Men ... 411,249 ... 2,986,274
Guns .... 4,372 ...... 43,079
AFVs .... 1,936 ...... 16,151
Aircraft . 1,750 ....... 5,725

OOB:
.......... Germany ............ Soviet
Men .... 3,397,706 (3,318,660) ... 4,159,845 (4,062,835)
Guns ..... 32,984 (31,078) ...... 35,300 (33,533)
AFVs ...... 2,906 (2,380) ....... 2,731 (2,542)
Aircraft .. 2,626 (2,246) ....... 7,427 (7,177)

I've left out Germany's allies from the OOB for simplicity, but once you add them in, the Axis has a clear numerical superiority in all categories, except for aircraft, where there are more than twice as many Soviet aircraft as Axis.

From reading the comments and looking at some of the other discussion, one of my mistakes was I didn't retreat far enough or often enough. My opponent says he hasn't seen what he calls an "aggressive defense".

Cheers

Gary

[GamesaurusRex]

[:D][:D] Gary, the most "aggressive" Russian defense your opponent is going to see in this simulation in 1941 is a cloud of dust raised by Russian troops beating a hasty retreat for Moskow. (I would have said the Urals for comic effect, but some here are too literal for that sort of sarcasm.)[:D][:D]

[caliJP]

Gary, I don't think your situation is too desperate. Yes you chose to defend forward as opposed to just run, so you have more casualties because of that. I did the same in my game against JC, you can check my AAR. My casualties and OOB were pretty similar to yours at the same time, and JC had moved maybe a little less far east than yours, but not by a lot. Still, now in 1942 I am able to put up a stiff defense. So I think it is worth continuing your game, you will learn a lot about the blizzard and 1942, and specially what it takes to rebuild the Red Army. Then you can use all that experience for your next game. You can only learn so much on this Forum, you have to experience those different phases of the war to know what to watch for and how to plan ahead. This is very important for the Red Army side, as besides not losing in 1942, one of the key goals is to prep your army for 1943 when you will be pushing back westwards. But it takes over a year to really build the machine you need.

[garydj]

Thanks, for the advice, JP. I'll keep playing and see what happens.

Cheers

Gary