Device Upgrades

[tiemanjw]

I have 2 questions regarding device upgrades:

1) I am looking at tracker and I see that I have 2410 "USA Rifle Squad 42" "Active" (2336 used + pool). But they only have a build rate of 80/month and start in July '42 (it is Oct 20 1942)... so assuming 4 months of building, I should only have 320 total. I don't remember any convoys or disbanded units brining in a motherload of these squads, so I'm wondering where the nearly 2000 came from.

2) How does a unit to upgrade [from a game mechanics point of view]? It appears that each of my units has either the US Rifle Squad, or the US Rifle Squad 42. So I'm guessing that a minimum requirement is to have enough in the pool, but:
does it need to be enough to fill out the TO&E, or just enough to replace what is currently in the unit (presuming the unit took significant combat damage, or is otherwise below strength)
what happens when a unit upgrades - do the upgrading devices replace the old devices 1 for 1? In other words if I have 198 active devices plus 75 disabled (old devices), do I get 198 active plus 75 disabled new devices?

[Bullwinkle58]

Perhaps a partial answer to your question #1 is here, by Andy Mac. He was on the development team and is deeply involved in the land piece of the game's design. This is from 2009, so patches might have altered it some (don't know), but this behavior by upgrading devices is what I see in my game.

"OK the potted version.

Inf Squads now upgrade as before however when a squad upgrades to a new type th esquads that it replaces are sent back to the pool as the latest incarnation of the squad type.

So an Indian Infantry Bridge has say 2 Bns of Indian and 1 of British Infantry

So it has
72 Indian 41 Sections and
36 British 41 Sections.

Now if the pool has 72 Indian 42 Sections they upgrade as normal but when the Indian 41 Sections are returned to the pool they are automatically upgraded.

Why is this well Squad updates are basically small arms changes the manpower does not for th emost part become obsolete.

So unlike Stock where you had hundreds of obsolete squads in the pool and replacement rates designed to allow some units to upgrade you are now left actual replacement rates for Squads.

This has large indications for some armies.

Indian Army has very limited replacements in 41/42 because they have not yet fully mobilised and they are supporting both the Middle East and Persia with replacements as well.

As a result Indian replacements are quite low until Auk's reforms kick in in 43 and the raising of Indian manpower from non traditional sources begins with more thoroughness.

British Army replacements actually drop over time they start low and get lower - you should always be short of British Sections - gradually as the Indianisation of Indian Divs proceeds British Bns are replaced by indian ones freeing up British Squads to reinforce the British Divs (2nd/18th and 36th plus the Chindits)

NZ is very short of replacements because so many are being sent to the Middle East.

Australia gains replacements over time by consolidating the Light Horse Bns and Motor Bdes/Bns and by a relativelly ok replacement rate in 41/42 but dropping thereafter.

Rebuilding a Div with obsolete device types like the Indian 41 Section is no longer possible because these devices have been auto upgraded and device production now has an end date.

US/USMC both have higher replacement rates than the other allied nations and tend to get stronger over time although even for these forces I suspect a very aggressive early strategy will lead to prime Infantry shortages later in the war.

Infantry are a valued resource don't waste them.

In the last game I played I saved a large fragment of 9th Indian Div from Malaya - within 4 months I had sent it to Delhi where it was allowed to disband returning all devices to the pool "



The thread is here: tm.asp?m=2164009&mpage=4&key=devices?

For US Army 1942 squads I have seen up to five base forces upgrade their infantry in one turn when only enough squads were in the starting pool for one. They recycle into and out of the pool. To upgrade a division you have to save up for months AFAIK. But once you do one the recycle ought to let you do the others quickly.

Other players are far more masterful on this issue than I am, but I think this is a start.

[crsutton]

To simplify what the Bull is saying is that unlike squads, devices replace on a one for one basis. You need to have 24 105 mm guns in the pool to upgrade a 24 gun unit and then your pool is going to be short 24 guns. However, for the Allies at least the older replaced guns will go to the pool so that a rear line unit can use them.

Squads are different as you only need to accumulate enough squads equal to the number needed by the unit to upgrade and upgrading draws no squads from the pool. (replacements do) So, if you have 108 Aussie squads in the pool you can break down a full Aussie division and upgrade three brigades and then recombined the division. Many players will disband a few smaller units to quickly gain enough squads in the pool to allow for quicker upgrading of all other units.

[tiemanjw]

That explains where the "extra" squads came from. So if this is the case, is there any point to "restricting" the upgrades? I was aggravated [with myself] when I saw most of my base forces upgraded to the USA Rifle 42 squads - assuming they were using squads I'd rather have in a regiment or division near the front. But now it sounds like when they took 10 '42 squads, the 10 '41 squads they put back turned into '42.

I guess I'm not so lucky in that my 75mm AAs don't magically change to 90mm?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

That explains where the "extra" squads came from. So if this is the case, is there any point to "restricting" the upgrades? I was aggravated [with myself] when I saw most of my base forces upgraded to the USA Rifle 42 squads - assuming they were using squads I'd rather have in a regiment or division near the front. But now it sounds like when they took 10 '42 squads, the 10 '41 squads they put back turned into '42.

They did turn into 1942s. However, as I said I've seen up to five base forces swap in one turn, but I had more than five that could have. They had supply, HQ support, etc., but they didn't swap. It makes me think there's some kind of op point mechanism on upgrades so there isn't an unlimited daisy chain of swap, upgrade, return, swap, etc. in one turn. I don't know that's the case, but it seems as if it might be, at least for smaller upgrades.

For the US Army it's hard to do the tactic crsutton calls for in terms of division upgrades. Anything withdrawing is exempt for disbanding, and anything big you might disband is still stuck with 1941 squads, or far away from the national base. There may be a trick, but so far I haven't found any way around saving up for the first brigade-load at 80/month. After that you can waterfall with swaps and recycling.

[witpqs]

Apologies that I didn't read completely the above... This might help a bit.

The number of squads that can upgrade in a turn is limited to the amount in the pool. So if you have 5 units that each have 100 squads which need upgrading, and there are 150 new type squads in the pool, those upgrades will take at least 5 turns (one unit per turn limit in this case).

There is also the issue of supply, being in a base, and definitely various checks to be made (although I don't know what they are). I am 99% sure that presence of an HQ is not required, but maybe it gives a bonus to the chance to upgrade? As far as supply goes, I have not seen a clear cut off (maybe it's in the manual and I don't know that [:'(]). But it is clear that the more supply the better the chance. If I have a unit at a base with hundreds of supply and the unit will not upgrade (even though supply is totally in the green), getting supply up to at least four digits makes a difference, but does not always result in immediate upgrades.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Apologies that I didn't read completely the above... This might help a bit.

The number of squads that can upgrade in a turn is limited to the amount in the pool. So if you have 5 units that each have 100 squads which need upgrading, and there are 150 new type squads in the pool, those upgrades will take at least 5 turns (one unit per turn limit in this case).

This isn't the case in all cases. Base forces typically have 12 squads of 1941 infantry in mid-1942. If you have 12 squads of 1942 infantry in the pools and all base forces set to upgrade, and stockpile off, up to five (in my experience) base forces will upgrade in one turn from those 12 starting squads. The first upgrades, and its old 1941 squads go back to the pool as 1942 squads. Then the next upgrades, rotates its old back, and so forth. I might have seen five due to where in the LCU number stack my first one was; I don't know. But the rotate and upgrade mechanism, which crsutton spoke to on a division basis where only one brigade-worth of 1942 is needed to upgrade three brigades, works. It's what Andy Mac spoke to in my 2009 post, just with more verbiage.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Apologies that I didn't read completely the above... This might help a bit.

The number of squads that can upgrade in a turn is limited to the amount in the pool. So if you have 5 units that each have 100 squads which need upgrading, and there are 150 new type squads in the pool, those upgrades will take at least 5 turns (one unit per turn limit in this case).

This isn't the case in all cases. Base forces typically have 12 squads of 1941 infantry in mid-1942. If you have 12 squads of 1942 infantry in the pools and all base forces set to upgrade, and stockpile off, up to five (in my experience) base forces will upgrade in one turn from those 12 starting squads. The first upgrades, and its old 1941 squads go back to the pool as 1942 squads. Then the next upgrades, rotates its old back, and so forth. I might have seen five due to where in the LCU number stack my first one was; I don't know. But the rotate and upgrade mechanism, which crsutton spoke to on a division basis where only one brigade-worth of 1942 is needed to upgrade three brigades, works. It's what Andy Mac spoke to in my 2009 post, just with more verbiage.

No, if it was that way it was changed (I seem to remember that upgrades got 'fixed' in the distant past but can't swear to it). See if you can get that to happen with any release somewhat recent release (last two or three years, at least). Basically, now each squad in the pool can only be used to upgrade one time per day (saying it that way in case of multiple-day turns).

So, the rotation to upgrade a whole division with only 1/3 of the needed new squads does work, but takes a minimum of three days because each new squad can only be used once per day. If you doubt it look for current examples.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Apologies that I didn't read completely the above... This might help a bit.

The number of squads that can upgrade in a turn is limited to the amount in the pool. So if you have 5 units that each have 100 squads which need upgrading, and there are 150 new type squads in the pool, those upgrades will take at least 5 turns (one unit per turn limit in this case).

This isn't the case in all cases. Base forces typically have 12 squads of 1941 infantry in mid-1942. If you have 12 squads of 1942 infantry in the pools and all base forces set to upgrade, and stockpile off, up to five (in my experience) base forces will upgrade in one turn from those 12 starting squads. The first upgrades, and its old 1941 squads go back to the pool as 1942 squads. Then the next upgrades, rotates its old back, and so forth. I might have seen five due to where in the LCU number stack my first one was; I don't know. But the rotate and upgrade mechanism, which crsutton spoke to on a division basis where only one brigade-worth of 1942 is needed to upgrade three brigades, works. It's what Andy Mac spoke to in my 2009 post, just with more verbiage.

No, if it was that way it was changed (I seem to remember that upgrades got 'fixed' in the distant past but can't swear to it). See if you can get that to happen with any release somewhat recent release (last two or three years, at least). Basically, now each squad in the pool can only be used to upgrade one time per day (saying it that way in case of multiple-day turns).

So, the rotation to upgrade a whole division with only 1/3 of the needed new squads does work, but takes a minimum of three days because each new squad can only be used once per day. If you doubt it look for current examples.

I've never upgraded a whole division at once, but I did the five base force thing last week in the x4 beta. I started the day with 18 squads in the pool.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I've never upgraded a whole division at once, but I did the five base force thing last week in the x4 beta. I started the day with 18 squads in the pool.

As added data, the screenshot, edited for opsec, shows my US Army squads. The game date is July 31, 1942. So only one month of production on the 1942 squads, at 80/month. I've used 408 squads.

When they began producing I started a thread asking about how upgrades worked, as I had never paid them much attention playing the AI. The next turn I turned upgrades off for all my divisions (about 270 squads each) and regiments (about 90 each.) I had 18 squads in the pool at that time. I left the base forces on. I also left the independent battalions and the few independent companies I have right now. I just looked and none of them have upgraded, although the companies could have. I didn't dig into their supply state, etc, which is probably the reason. One I know is at only a few percent needed supply.

Over the next two turns I checked the base forces in Tracker and they upgraded in waves. But as of 7/31 not all have. The USAAF base forces in particular seem to be slow. I have one on a forward island in x2 supply which has upgraded its TOE, but still has 1941 squads. It doesn't have a HQ in range FWIW. I don't know how the code decides which to prioritize. There are 12 squads in the pools right now and that base force wants exactly 12 squads.

It's possible I am misremembering last week and the base forces upgraded over several turns, but I don't think so. Regardless, to the OP's question: one month, 80 produced, 408 deployed.

[witpqs]

If some squads were used more than once in a day, it's a bug that Michael needs to see so he can fix it.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

That explains where the "extra" squads came from. So if this is the case, is there any point to "restricting" the upgrades? I was aggravated [with myself] when I saw most of my base forces upgraded to the USA Rifle 42 squads - assuming they were using squads I'd rather have in a regiment or division near the front. But now it sounds like when they took 10 '42 squads, the 10 '41 squads they put back turned into '42.

They did turn into 1942s. However, as I said I've seen up to five base forces swap in one turn, but I had more than five that could have. They had supply, HQ support, etc., but they didn't swap. It makes me think there's some kind of op point mechanism on upgrades so there isn't an unlimited daisy chain of swap, upgrade, return, swap, etc. in one turn. I don't know that's the case, but it seems as if it might be, at least for smaller upgrades.

For the US Army it's hard to do the tactic crsutton calls for in terms of division upgrades. Anything withdrawing is exempt for disbanding, and anything big you might disband is still stuck with 1941 squads, or far away from the national base. There may be a trick, but so far I haven't found any way around saving up for the first brigade-load at 80/month. After that you can waterfall with swaps and recycling.

Actually, I almost never see a reason to do this with US units. The flow of US squads is plentiful and no units come on the board understrength (a common event with all
Commonwealth units). Barring some sort of major disaster there is no reason to ever disband a US unit. However, this tactic is very useful with all Indian, British, and especially Australian units. Quite frankly, you will never have enough PP to buy all these forces out for action outside their borders so once any threat of Japanese invasion has passed then disbanding units become a regular event for me. I want my front line units to be a full strength.

The most critical upgrade for all Allied units is the upgrade from the 42 squads to the 43. The antitank values gained for all of the Allied infantry squads is immense. Otherwise, the upgrades between years is not so important. They are always better but not so much that you need to sweat it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

That explains where the "extra" squads came from. So if this is the case, is there any point to "restricting" the upgrades? I was aggravated [with myself] when I saw most of my base forces upgraded to the USA Rifle 42 squads - assuming they were using squads I'd rather have in a regiment or division near the front. But now it sounds like when they took 10 '42 squads, the 10 '41 squads they put back turned into '42.

They did turn into 1942s. However, as I said I've seen up to five base forces swap in one turn, but I had more than five that could have. They had supply, HQ support, etc., but they didn't swap. It makes me think there's some kind of op point mechanism on upgrades so there isn't an unlimited daisy chain of swap, upgrade, return, swap, etc. in one turn. I don't know that's the case, but it seems as if it might be, at least for smaller upgrades.

For the US Army it's hard to do the tactic crsutton calls for in terms of division upgrades. Anything withdrawing is exempt for disbanding, and anything big you might disband is still stuck with 1941 squads, or far away from the national base. There may be a trick, but so far I haven't found any way around saving up for the first brigade-load at 80/month. After that you can waterfall with swaps and recycling.

Actually, I almost never see a reason to do this with US units. The flow of US squads is plentiful and no units come on the board understrength (a common event with all
Commonwealth units). Barring some sort of major disaster there is no reason to ever disband a US unit. However, this tactic is very useful with all Indian, British, and especially Australian units. Quite frankly, you will never have enough PP to buy all these forces out for action outside their borders so once any threat of Japanese invasion has passed then disbanding units become a regular event for me. I want my front line units to be a full strength.

The most critical upgrade for all Allied units is the upgrade from the 42 squads to the 43. The antitank values gained for all of the Allied infantry squads is immense. Otherwise, the upgrades between years is not so important. They are always better but not so much that you need to sweat it.

The anti-hard from 1941 to 1942 is no slouch either. Since anti-hard is thin in all the Allied forces in the first year I see the regiments in particular as needing the 1942 infantry. The divisions aren't really maneuver elements yet, but the regiments are standing alone on a lot of islands.

Since you can't disband any due-to-withdraw units anyway, and have to be at a national base, I rarely find the opportunity for the US Army even if I wanted to. And early the Indians can't really stand to lose the garrison AV for most of their disbandables.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If some squads were used more than once in a day, it's a bug that Michael needs to see so he can fix it.

Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If some squads were used more than once in a day, it's a bug that Michael needs to see so he can fix it.

Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

It would be a bug because they said, very clearly, 'it works this way' and it has worked that way. If it has started working another way then that is unintentional.

That is not to say that you mightn't have made different design choices than they made.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If some squads were used more than once in a day, it's a bug that Michael needs to see so he can fix it.

Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

It would be a bug because they said, very clearly, 'it works this way' and it has worked that way. If it has started working another way then that is unintentional.

That is not to say that you mightn't have made different design choices than they made.

Can you show me where they said "it works this way"? I'm serious. I posted a thread by Andy Mac from 2009 that doesn't specify, so much as I read of it, that there's a day's gap.

Look at the number of LCUs, most of which take saving up, that need 1942 squads. The base forces alone. If there has to be a day between each, plus saving for first battalions, then regiments, then divisions, at 80 per month . . . it doesn't get done before the 1943 model is out. And that's not even counting having all your infantry hanging around supply dumps waiting.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If some squads were used more than once in a day, it's a bug that Michael needs to see so he can fix it.

Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

It would be a bug because they said, very clearly, 'it works this way' and it has worked that way. If it has started working another way then that is unintentional.

That is not to say that you mightn't have made different design choices than they made.

As far as I can recall it has worked this way from day one. Bug or no. Seems to be reasonable so I doubt it is bugged.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

It would be a bug because they said, very clearly, 'it works this way' and it has worked that way. If it has started working another way then that is unintentional.

That is not to say that you mightn't have made different design choices than they made.

As far as I can recall it has worked this way from day one. Bug or no. Seems to be reasonable so I doubt it is bugged.

Which way?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



Why is it a bug? There's nothing holy about a day. And they weren't the same squads, they were retrograded squads. It doesn't let you create wonder squads. If you start with 18 you can't swap more than 18 at a time.

It would be a bug because they said, very clearly, 'it works this way' and it has worked that way. If it has started working another way then that is unintentional.

That is not to say that you mightn't have made different design choices than they made.

Can you show me where they said "it works this way"? I'm serious. I posted a thread by Andy Mac from 2009 that doesn't specify, so much as I read of it, that there's a day's gap.

Look at the number of LCUs, most of which take saving up, that need 1942 squads. The base forces alone. If there has to be a day between each, plus saving for first battalions, then regiments, then divisions, at 80 per month . . . it doesn't get done before the 1943 model is out. And that's not even counting having all your infantry hanging around supply dumps waiting.

I'll see what I can find, but it had to be later than 2009 because it was after Michael took over maintenance.

I watch squad upgrades very carefully and I am 100% certain of how it works, including an example of squad upgrades taking place in my current PBM over the last several turns (and that will last several more turns because of that mechanism). I've got enough USA '44 infantry squads to do 1/3 division but not a whole division. I divided up multiple divisions, and only one Rgt per day is upgrading. If it worked the way you say then all Rgts (technically 1/3 divs - the /A/B/C sub-units) would have upgraded on the same turn. But they didn't.

[witpqs]

Found these in the release notes. Could be any one of them.

V1.01. 08r9 – January 21, 2012

Fixed

100. Loop in upgrade of LCU devices.

108. Auto-upgrade of squad/engineer devices when LCU takes upgrades; incorrectly changed
earlier in beta.

127. Auto-upgrade of squad devices when LCU taking replacements causes an upgrade.

211. LCU replacements could cause 'free' upgrade sometimes


Changed

47. Change to the land device upgrade and replacement phases to better control devices.


v1.01.06g – July 21, 2010

Code Changes

88. Minor adjustment to upgrade land devices.