Old school ASW
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
Old school ASW
I ran across this photo on one of my P-3 subscription sites the other day. Even today the "mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball" is still an effective ASW sensor. [:D]
- Attachments
-
- visualsubsighting.jpg (10 KiB) Viewed 62 times
RE: Old school ASW
Now that's cool [8D] I wonder why the splum? It's obviously from the tower, but why so shallow? I would think if he just went down there would be a wake. Is he coming up?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
RE: Old school ASW
Not very stealthy.
Todd
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Now that's cool [8D] I wonder why the splum? It's obviously from the tower, but why so shallow? I would think if he just went down there would be a wake. Is he coming up?
My guess is that he's trolling his ESM antenna , to see what RADARs and electronic "noise" is up there. He may have , or be about to put his attack scope up. He could also be up for "COMMS". Maybe one of our brethren who's a former "bubblehead" can comment and educate us?
This is actually not an uncommon sight in the Med, the Caribbean or the "Persian/Arabian gulf". Shallow , clear waters give visibility down to 200' on occasion. I once saw a "Conga-line" of four subs (several different nations) each trailing the other. That's a photo I wish I had! [:D]
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: tocaff
Not very stealthy.
A lot of the world's submarine drivers think that the minute they are covered with water , they become invisible. I've seen and heard of certain south American boats driving around with the periscope up while the captain goes for coffee![X(]
Not a healthy habit , but very useful to those in the ASW business![:D]
- Rising-Sun
- Posts: 2141
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:27 am
- Location: Clifton Park, NY
- Contact:
RE: Old school ASW
Flying above close, will spot those subs pretty easy. That why they always keep a lookout for aircrafts and not easy to do while at periscope depth. If they are surfaced, they can crash and dive pretty quick, but if spotted there a good chance the aircraft can drop their payloads close to them.
I like to see some actual footages on how they do it in the past. Only seen very few clips on movies.
I like to see some actual footages on how they do it in the past. Only seen very few clips on movies.
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Now that's cool [8D] I wonder why the splum? It's obviously from the tower, but why so shallow? I would think if he just went down there would be a wake. Is he coming up?
My guess is that he's trolling his ESM antenna , to see what RADARs and electronic "noise" is up there. He may have , or be about to put his attack scope up. He could also be up for "COMMS". Maybe one of our brethren who's a former "bubblehead" can comment and educate us?
This is actually not an uncommon sight in the Med, the Caribbean or the "Persian/Arabian gulf". Shallow , clear waters give visibility down to 200' on occasion. I once saw a "Conga-line" of four subs (several different nations) each trailing the other. That's a photo I wish I had! [:D]
Looks like a 688? Or 688I? Even on 400% zoom it's pretty fuzzy. Shrouded prop possibly. Maybe VLS tubes in the bow.
I would say this is almost certainly an exercise. The scope is the first thing to go up. A 688 attack scope has ESM capability. If the P-3 had any radar going at all, and I assume it did to get a datum this fast, the sub knew it was there. The P-3's PRF is very distinctive on the audio. It also knows what time of day it is and the weather. If it came to PD in a non-exercise condition in broad daylight the ESM operator needs to be re-qualed yesterday.
Bubbleheads, at least in the USN, are very aware of how visible they are in certain areas of the ocean. I'd further speculate this is at AUTEC; the water there is very clear and different communities take turns acting stupid so other communities can practice. When we were there we had to wear a thumper so the skimmer ASW guys could practice passive TMA. They wouldn't have found us otherwise.
Still a cool shot. I miss those times sometimes.
The Moose
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Now that's cool [8D] I wonder why the splum? It's obviously from the tower, but why so shallow? I would think if he just went down there would be a wake. Is he coming up?
My guess is that he's trolling his ESM antenna , to see what RADARs and electronic "noise" is up there. He may have , or be about to put his attack scope up. He could also be up for "COMMS". Maybe one of our brethren who's a former "bubblehead" can comment and educate us?
This is actually not an uncommon sight in the Med, the Caribbean or the "Persian/Arabian gulf". Shallow , clear waters give visibility down to 200' on occasion. I once saw a "Conga-line" of four subs (several different nations) each trailing the other. That's a photo I wish I had! [:D]
Looks like a 688? Or 688I? Even on 400% zoom it's pretty fuzzy. Shrouded prop possibly. Maybe VLS tubes in the bow.
I would say this is almost certainly an exercise. The scope is the first thing to go up. A 688 attack scope has ESM capability. If the P-3 had any radar going at all, and I assume it did to get a datum this fast, the sub knew it was there. The P-3's PRF is very distinctive on the audio. It also knows what time of day it is and the weather. If it came to PD in a non-exercise condition in broad daylight the ESM operator needs to be re-qualed yesterday.
Bubbleheads, at least in the USN, are very aware of how visible they are in certain areas of the ocean. I'd further speculate this is at AUTEC; the water there is very clear and different communities take turns acting stupid so other communities can practice. When we were there we had to wear a thumper so the skimmer ASW guys could practice passive TMA. They wouldn't have found us otherwise.
Still a cool shot. I miss those times sometimes.
AUTEC would definitely fit the bill. It's an awfully big feather. Could one of his scopes be up? And it looks like VLS tubes , which would make it a 688-I.
As a former ESM operator , let me toss out this: you can't blame the guy if the P-3 isn't emitting. But your lead SONAR operator should definitely picked up the P-3's noise , and it's particular sound signature. At that low , WE definitely could pick it up , and we were using a cheap little disposable plastic micro-phone that looks like it was built by Mattel , rather than a massive small house sized hydrophone. Yes , I'm sure it was an exercise. But I've often seen subs _be, not act" stupid. Some of them were even ours. Everybody has the occasional brain fart. Even nuke sub crews. But thank God, not often! [8|] [:D]
You only occasionally miss it Moose? I miss it every single day..[:(]
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
My guess is that he's trolling his ESM antenna , to see what RADARs and electronic "noise" is up there. He may have , or be about to put his attack scope up. He could also be up for "COMMS". Maybe one of our brethren who's a former "bubblehead" can comment and educate us?
This is actually not an uncommon sight in the Med, the Caribbean or the "Persian/Arabian gulf". Shallow , clear waters give visibility down to 200' on occasion. I once saw a "Conga-line" of four subs (several different nations) each trailing the other. That's a photo I wish I had! [:D]
Looks like a 688? Or 688I? Even on 400% zoom it's pretty fuzzy. Shrouded prop possibly. Maybe VLS tubes in the bow.
I would say this is almost certainly an exercise. The scope is the first thing to go up. A 688 attack scope has ESM capability. If the P-3 had any radar going at all, and I assume it did to get a datum this fast, the sub knew it was there. The P-3's PRF is very distinctive on the audio. It also knows what time of day it is and the weather. If it came to PD in a non-exercise condition in broad daylight the ESM operator needs to be re-qualed yesterday.
Bubbleheads, at least in the USN, are very aware of how visible they are in certain areas of the ocean. I'd further speculate this is at AUTEC; the water there is very clear and different communities take turns acting stupid so other communities can practice. When we were there we had to wear a thumper so the skimmer ASW guys could practice passive TMA. They wouldn't have found us otherwise.
Still a cool shot. I miss those times sometimes.
AUTEC would definitely fit the bill. It's an awfully big feather. Could one of his scopes be up? And it looks like VLS tubes , which would make it a 688-I.
As a former ESM operator , let me toss out this: you can't blame the guy if the P-3 isn't emitting. But your lead SONAR operator should definitely picked up the P-3's noise , and it's particular sound signature. At that low , WE definitely could pick it up , and we were using a cheap little disposable plastic micro-phone that looks like it was built by Mattel , rather than a massive small house sized hydrophone. Yes , I'm sure it was an exercise. But I've often seen subs _be, not act" stupid. Some of them were even ours. Everybody has the occasional brain fart. Even nuke sub crews. But thank God, not often! [8|] [:D]
You only occasionally miss it Moose? I miss it every single day..[:(]
Almost certain he has multiple masts up, unless it's within a minute or less of attaining PD. Scope first, then the real ESM mast, then a radio antenna to get on the satellite. Maybe a sat fix too, depending on how long it's been. I don't think a snorkel; that makes a huge feather. From the wake I'd guess 4-6 knots. SOP in a sea state that calm. I'd say about a 1 degree up-bubble; an easy evolution for the DOOW and the planesmen. It's glassy for open ocean.
At the moment the pic was taken I'd say it's certain the sonar girls could hear the P-3. But sound doesn't penetrate the air-water interface very well going down. A thousand yards away the sub might not hear. OTOH, without radar, what's the slant distance the P-3 could see a non-feathered submerged sub at that altitude? A mile? If no radar and a feather, maybe 3-4 miles? Not a lot of time before you're overhead. You know the beauty of ESM--you hear them before they find you. If it wasn't an exercise and the sub got an ESM hit they'd be down below visible detection in under thirty seconds. Maybe leave a small cavitation swirl. There's an exciting evolution called "Emergency Deep" subs practice a lot. All the OOD has to say is those words--usually yelled--and the ship's control party has a set series of predefined steps they take to get away from the surface and go to a Safe (classified) Place. The OOD then acts to clear datum as he wishes.
Sometimes you have to be at PD no matter who is around. Sometimes you get ordered to comm and no excuses. Sometimes you have a casualty that requires being at PD (fire being the main one, but really anything that requires reducing pressure and/or ventilating.) And sometimes you're dumping garbage and blowing the sanitaries and somebody gets lucky. Then there's a lot of paperwork. [:)]
The Moose
RE: Old school ASW
Speaking of South American sub drivers. Have your heard that Brazil is going to obtain some new subs to defend their new offshore oilfields? The crazy part of it is that they are going to have a couple of the diesel electric boats converted to nukes. For defensive purposes in your own coastal waters aren't the diesel electrics better suited?
Todd
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
RE: Old school ASW
Brazil has had a "nuclear submarine program" since I was an airman apprentice (late 1970's). They've talk about buying French nuke boats. Building "mini-nuke boats" (electric boats with a "mini-nuke" generator) , and lastly building their own. Personally , I think their nuke program is more "want than need" , and more "prestige than utility". An example is the traditional rivalry between Brazil with other south American countries , 1st with dreadnoughts , then with light aircraft carriers. Brazil is now the only one left with a carrier, imagine the prestige if it had the only nuke? That's my theory , for whatever it's worth. [:)]ORIGINAL: tocaff
Speaking of South American sub drivers. Have your heard that Brazil is going to obtain some new subs to defend their new offshore oilfields? The crazy part of it is that they are going to have a couple of the diesel electric boats converted to nukes. For defensive purposes in your own coastal waters aren't the diesel electrics better suited?
RE: Old school ASW
I agree that it's all about national ego. The naval nuke program is about 50 miles from where I sit. It has been going on and on forever and now finally it looks like they'll have their dream boats. I wonder who they're protecting the oil fields from? The Brazilian military would be hopelessly outmatched by a modern military as most Brazilian ships, tanks and current aircraft are reconditioned stuff from Europe and the US.
Todd
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
- Bullwinkle58
- Posts: 11297
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm
RE: Old school ASW
I think Brazil needs to focus on building World Cup and Olympic venues. They are on the verge of an historic, national, humiliating failure. Nuclear submarines are not for nations who can't even pour concrete.
The Moose
RE: Old school ASW
The crash dive has to be something to experience, but I did get the pleasure of being on station when a boat did an emergency blow. As cool as whales look coming out of the water, watching a sub launch itself out of the water is breathtaking. I cannot imagine what it is like to be on the boat that does that.
RE: Old school ASW
Brazil has failed miserably for the World Cup. Almost none of the promised infrastructure has been done. Little has been completed and that has been substandard. Funding was supposed to be private and the teams, but the federal government had to step in an float almost everything. Of course it was done with the promise that the monies would be paid back to the government. So between sub, World Cup the 2016 Summer Olympics the opportunity for corruption has been stupendous and the education system, health system and infrastructure remain in sad shape.
Despite all of that I really like it here. There's no perfect place on this planet as all governments excel at screwing things up.
This was not a political rant or an invitation to start one.
Despite all of that I really like it here. There's no perfect place on this planet as all governments excel at screwing things up.
This was not a political rant or an invitation to start one.
Todd
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768
- Rising-Sun
- Posts: 2141
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:27 am
- Location: Clifton Park, NY
- Contact:
RE: Old school ASW
Here an interesting video on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ4KmpdHUVs
I am still searching for good clips on ASW from the air during WWII.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ4KmpdHUVs
I am still searching for good clips on ASW from the air during WWII.
RE: Old school ASW
Was the aircraft set to 100 feet?
- geofflambert
- Posts: 14887
- Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
- Location: St. Louis
RE: Old school ASW
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Now that's cool [8D] I wonder why the splum? It's obviously from the tower, but why so shallow? I would think if he just went down there would be a wake. Is he coming up?
My guess is that he's trolling his ESM antenna , to see what RADARs and electronic "noise" is up there. He may have , or be about to put his attack scope up. He could also be up for "COMMS". Maybe one of our brethren who's a former "bubblehead" can comment and educate us?
This is actually not an uncommon sight in the Med, the Caribbean or the "Persian/Arabian gulf". Shallow , clear waters give visibility down to 200' on occasion. I once saw a "Conga-line" of four subs (several different nations) each trailing the other. That's a photo I wish I had! [:D]
Looks like a 688? Or 688I? Even on 400% zoom it's pretty fuzzy. Shrouded prop possibly. Maybe VLS tubes in the bow.
I would say this is almost certainly an exercise. The scope is the first thing to go up. A 688 attack scope has ESM capability. If the P-3 had any radar going at all, and I assume it did to get a datum this fast, the sub knew it was there. The P-3's PRF is very distinctive on the audio. It also knows what time of day it is and the weather. If it came to PD in a non-exercise condition in broad daylight the ESM operator needs to be re-qualed yesterday.
Bubbleheads, at least in the USN, are very aware of how visible they are in certain areas of the ocean. I'd further speculate this is at AUTEC; the water there is very clear and different communities take turns acting stupid so other communities can practice. When we were there we had to wear a thumper so the skimmer ASW guys could practice passive TMA. They wouldn't have found us otherwise.
Still a cool shot. I miss those times sometimes.
Bullwinkle I love it when you talk sexy like that. I'm getting hot. Dang it, I'm remembering reptiles can't sweat. Oh, poop. I guess my brain'll be in the frying pan one more time.