Comprehensive WWII counter pack is DEAD

[jonj01]

I should have seen at the very beginning. That a Comprehensive WWII Counter Pack ..That allowed every single person to have a single source for all their WWII mod counter needs....was JUST SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE...with the software as it is set up now.

I really really really wanted, all the WWII players to simply download the map and bmp for a scenario and just play. Then be able to play another mod scenario.
I put a lot of hours communicating with others and organizing the counter pack for WWII scenarios (this counter pack would have made the counter pack that came with the game look very small).

Jack(jcrochio) and I can fix all his scenarios so all his HotB counters have unique unit #'s. But that is not the problem.

The problem is we only have 2 slots to add nations to.

THE PROBLEM IS WE ONLY HAVE 2 SLOTS TO ADD NATIONS TO.

So in addition to the germans, the SS, the guards, the soviets, the Romanians, the partisans, and the freakin pain in the neck 'would someone do us a favor and nuke them' civilians....we only have 2 slots.

So we have to pick from the US and Brits or the US and French of the French and Brits..or the whatever...

you all see the problem.

It doesn't matter how much organizing and communicating and saying "you have such in such unit # slots for the italians and you have unit #s for the US.

None of that matters...cause the heros generated will be from wherever...

the people using these mods will have to be informed precisely on how they "install" each mod.

Anyway, I'm not providing support for any new counters that are not from the east front. A comprehensive counter pack for the east front should be out in a day or so.

It's too much hassel and quite frankly it is pointless.

Again I'm sorry I didn't see that long ago.

Thank you for all your help..it was a good try...but doomed from inception.

[Barthheart]

You must be a lot of fun at parties.... [:D]

Why all the doom and gloom.

I'm sure Tom can work the system to have more nations. He's only added 2 so far.
There were none at release.
Maybe they are restricting it.
Maybe they just didn't know what a kick ass job you all were going to do at adding all this wonderful content.

Patients... I'm sure that all your hard work will be very useful and welcome in the very near future.
[8D]

[usgrandprix]

Yeah I think you just have to do separate unit files for each mod, place them in custom folders, and then just be sure to change modules.dat every time. This isn;t too bad with 1.09.

I really appreciate your work, though. In fact I keep a master spreadsheet of units (with your too) and then copy from that when I make a mod.

It's more like a master list is useful as a building resource (copying from) rather than as the exact file the game uses.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: usgrandprix

Yeah I think you just have to do separate unit files for each mod, place them in custom folders, and then just be sure to change modules.dat every time. This isn;t too bad with 1.09.

I really appreciate your work, though. In fact I keep a master spreadsheet of units (with your too) and then copy from that when I make a mod.

It's more like a master list is useful as a building resource (copying from) rather than as the exact file the game uses.

A lot of the users have problems with all the folders. I understand this. And copying over the entire custom folder or changing the modules.dat(which doesn't even work right now) file everytime they want to play a scenario is a real pain...any many just won't do it.

We already have a lot of complaints and inquiries on installing the scenarios we have now.(without altering the modules.dat file)

The public might get it they might not.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

You must be a lot of fun at parties.... [:D]

Why all the doom and gloom.

I'm sure Tom can work the system to have more nations. He's only added 2 so far.
There were none at release.
Maybe they are restricting it.
Maybe they just didn't know what a kick ass job you all were going to do at adding all this wonderful content.

Patients... I'm sure that all your hard work will be very useful and welcome in the very near future.
[8D]

I am not holding my breath...its been 10 weeks since the release that was publicized for seven that's right seven years. And they still can't get the LOS stuff right.

What do they Pay you barthheart to prop the game up?

[maitrebongo]

Be patient,

If the programmers don't find solutions to the mess of mods installations, we'll always could developpate by ourself a little software to act as a mods organizer (by renamming folder and .dat files). Sure it will be not so difficult.

Stay Strong [:)]

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: maitrebongo

Be patient,

If the programmers don't find solutions to the mess of mods installations, we'll always could developpate by ourself a little software to act as a mods organizer (by renamming folder and .dat files). Sure it will be not so difficult.

Stay Strong [:)]

They guys are lucky we are such diehards..the editor was a freakin mess when the game came out...and there were soooooo many bugs in gameplay. Those who were really wanted this thing to work had to spend a lot of time doing trial and error to get that mess of a scenario editor to work. It works much better now and with a lot of time spent in scenario design it can be a very subtle and intricate tool to make detailed scenarios.

They talk of a new game in the works...they haven't gotten THIS GAME to work.
The game is still unplayable if there is a single level 1 hill in the scenario.

I simply don't like all the flippant responses from the developers and their ilk. A lot of us are poring 100's of hours of unpaid work into their system to make it better ...and we get FLIP.

it pisses me off.

[maitrebongo]

I includes perfectly your point of view.
But I think that for this kind of game (wargames on computer are a very little market...), developers are very present and reactive (IMO).
I knew games where it was necessary to wait much more for a long time so that enormous errors are resolved.
I believe that since its release, this game knew big evolutions. And I hope that it is going to continue in a positive direction.
We agree that today there are some boring problems :
- First : The LOS problem
- Second : The nations limitation
- Third : The difficulty of use of the scenarios editor.
In my opinion, they are not insuperable difficulties. And even though, we could find a solution by our own ways.
But I am confident in the fact that developers are quickly going to solve these few difficulties.
Why ?
Because I think that the future of the sales of this kind of game passes necessarily by addons as those whom we are creating.
If the game stayed as it is at present (limited to some battles on a unique battlefront - And the criticisms written in magazines and on the forums specified well this big weak point), we should be little to bought it.
If the ambition of this game is to become THE "Computer ASL", it is necessary that he can be modded and that scenarios can be create easily by any player.
The fact that a continuation is already envisaged and in production is the sign that sales must be correct. Of more all the work on the improvement of HOS will also take advantage in HOP, and can be certainly developed in parallels.
Thus, let us be not angry. Our work should not be vain.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

ORIGINAL: usgrandprix

Yeah I think you just have to do separate unit files for each mod, place them in custom folders, and then just be sure to change modules.dat every time. This isn;t too bad with 1.09.

I really appreciate your work, though. In fact I keep a master spreadsheet of units (with your too) and then copy from that when I make a mod.

It's more like a master list is useful as a building resource (copying from) rather than as the exact file the game uses.

A lot of the users have problems with all the folders. I understand this. And copying over the entire custom folder or changing the modules.dat(which doesn't even work right now) file everytime they want to play a scenario is a real pain...any many just won't do it.

We already have a lot of complaints and inquiries on installing the scenarios we have now.(without altering the modules.dat file)

The public might get it they might not.

Have you looked at how JSGME might help with this challenge? (I'm not sure it is still actively supported, but I still use it for any of my games that have mods). I've actually thought the programmer and developer were responding pretty well to identified issues. Even though it might cut into some of their potential for future modules, they've been pretty supportive I've thought.

But in any case, I'd look into JSGME. JSGME is a tool that automatically create backups of files when you 'activate a mod' and then when you deactivate the mod, it replaces the original files. I've been using it for several years.

And by the way thank you for your work on trying to keep this organized, and for all of you modders work.

Thanks
Rick

[baloo7777]

ORIGINAL: jonj01

ORIGINAL: usgrandprix

Yeah I think you just have to do separate unit files for each mod, place them in custom folders, and then just be sure to change modules.dat every time. This isn;t too bad with 1.09.

I really appreciate your work, though. In fact I keep a master spreadsheet of units (with your too) and then copy from that when I make a mod.

It's more like a master list is useful as a building resource (copying from) rather than as the exact file the game uses.

A lot of the users have problems with all the folders. I understand this. And copying over the entire custom folder or changing the modules.dat(which doesn't even work right now) file everytime they want to play a scenario is a real pain...any many just won't do it.

We already have a lot of complaints and inquiries on installing the scenarios we have now.(without altering the modules.dat file)

The public might get it they might not.

I love this game and have complete respect for you modders, who I feel are making a good game into a great one. That being said, I am in my mid 50's and not the most tech savvy guy. The use of these wonderful mods is rapidly getting out of my abilities. It is very frustrating, and I have to agree with jonj01's assessment. I hope this can be made easier in the not so distant future.

[jcrohio]

I just got done fiddling around with the JSGME Generic Mod Enabler. What I did was brought my game back to version 1.09 with no modifications. Got rid of all my new counter-sheets, maps etc. I installed JSGME right into HoS folder (I have this on a couple of other games and this is the way I have done it - a unique install for each game). Attached is a picture (which I hope is embedded). Took my HotB Scenarios and created a folder mimicking folder setup from Hos. Did the same with Heroes of the Gap files I downloaded from here. Note I took all files and placed them in the correct folders. Then it is just a matter of running the mod, it will offer a choice of what mod to install, it will backup any pertinent files, and run the mod chosen. When you want to switch mods simply run JSGME again and switch from one mod to another.

It does work well but we must keep mods together as seperate mods. LIke I have one mod to run HotG and and second to run HotB. There could be any number.

What do you guys think?

I can post a more comprehensive install guide if needed.
Jack

[Cataphract88]

Hi Jack,

I've used this in the past for Panzer Corps, and never run into any problems. It's worked very well for me in the past. [:)]

[maitrebongo]

JSMGE is the solution we have to take if the developpers don't find solutions for the "Mods mess installations" problem.
But i have no doubts they find an elegant solution included in the original game [;)]

[Werewolf13]

Modders... [&o]

You guys. [:-]

Put yourselves in the developers' place. Y'all force them to walk a really fine line.

On the one hand y'all know the games you're modding better'n probly 90% of the players. You help immensely in finding the annoying little faults that should be fixed and the bugs that must be fixed. You fill holes in a game with new units, graphics etc that enhance the existing product and quite often in ways that generate new sales. The devs win, the players win, the modders win.

On the other hand some of you are so damned good at modding a system that you turn a game into what can arguably be called a whole new product or at least something that should be DLC or a new campaign, theatre etc. Any one of which the dev planned to develop on his own to keep the system and oh by the way his livelihood alive and kicking and sold seperately to generate new revenue for the developer.. Y'all leverage the dev's success to a point where they can no longer profit from it. The devs lose, the players lose and the mods can wander off basking in the glory of their success and continue the cycle somewhere else.

Modding can be a good thing or a BAD thing which is a function of how well modders can work with the devs and within any restraints the devs might put on their products.

[hjc]

On the other hand some of you are so damned good at modding a system that you turn a game into what can arguably be called a whole new product or at least something that should be DLC or a new campaign, theatre etc. Any one of which the dev planned to develop on his own to keep the system and oh by the way his livelihood alive and kicking and sold seperately to generate new revenue for the developer.. Y'all leverage the dev's success to a point where they can no longer profit from it. The devs lose, the players lose and the mods can wander off basking in the glory of their success and continue the cycle somewhere else.

Modding can be a good thing or a BAD thing which is a function of how well modders can work with the devs and within any restraints the devs might put on their products.

This is a very interesting topic and one which is probably discussed at length when devs get together.

We're talking extensive moddability here, not just changing a skin or a sound effect. No doubt game publishers have tried to study the effects of modding on sales, and I don't have any real numbers - but it appears that games which can be modded tend to last longer and develop more continued interest. I often look at the modding community for a game when considering whether to buy it. When I first saw LnL I wasn't entirely convinced - I was worried that to make it versatile I would be dependent on waiting for extra content and DLC. Seeing the amount of community made maps and counters available I bought the game.

Certainly modders could be seen to be stealing the rug from under the dev's feet (to mix my metaphors) - there's no way to avoid that possibility if a game is very moddable. The situation is this: a game dev is saying "here is content and it is worth paying money for". The modder says "here is a great game I paid for, and it's worth my time/love to add to it". This is a nice symbiotic situation which should normally lead to increased sales for the dev.

The difference in content quality is the dev taking the position of being professional - their content by definition should be superior to that of the amateur. The trick is for the dev - if they want to gather extra money aside from sales of the original game - to make the DLC/extension game worth paying for, by being superior to amateur content. Players will judge whether the extra content offered by the professional is worth paying for.

In the end, plucking imaginary numbers from the air, as a dev I would rather sell 10,000 of my highly moddable game which attracts a thriving community, than 1,000 of my closed off game and then spend 9 times the effort to develop and sell 9 lots of DLC each at diminishing sales numbers. The highly moddable route might take a lot less effort to achieve the income. This translates into a higher wage per hour for the dev, because as you pointed out - this is their living, and we want them to make a living by making great games for us.

LnL has a lot of good will out there, I think that will translate into good sales of any new LnL PC stuff. I'm very grateful the game has been made moddable, and the modders have my thanks for sharing their work.

[jcrohio]

Let me start off by saying that I have never really done much of this modding stuff. I own Heroes of the Blitzkrieg and when I purchased this game immediately saw that I might be able to bring some of the scenarios into HoS. My first thought was pretty much identical to what you stated - what would Mark and Tom think. So I posted this. Basically stated what I wanted to try with HotB and would this be a problem for them. If they had issues I would still do it (I wanted to see if I could) but would not post it. I got no answers from them either positive or negative so I assumed every thing was okay.

Let me close by saying this - I have done a lot with HotB but there is a lot of stuff in the game that cannot be modded (or at least I don't know how). If they would produce a module based on HotB I would buy it in a second.

Jack

[maitrebongo]

OK, let us speak seriously. [:)]

First, I totally agree with all that BofH said.
I am persuaded that we can (must) work in a symbiotic way between modders and developers.
It has to be a win/win relation.

The point of view of the creators AND the developers is to perceive the just remuneration for their work.
For it they sell the results of their work which is a concept of game (Lock and Load system) AND a software Which the purpose is to allow to play this system on a computer (against AI or in multiplayer). This is that HOS is.

In the point of view of the modders, this software is sell with the possibility of modding it (scenario editor, open graphic format, Excel-like files...). It is the case of more or less every computer wargames sold today. It is in my opinion the only way to sell a product so little technological (compared with the other titles of the video games market, sold more or less to the same price).
Finally, this software is a tool which allows to play a system of game on a computer. This tool allows us of origin to create mods and is selling as it. It is not a perversion we made of the software.

Why do I make mods ?
I make it because I think that this game has an enormous development potential which it is not obvious to perceive in its original shape.
My objective is to demonstrate that it can become THE reference regarding conversion of this kind of boardgames towards computer games.
I cannot realize it alone. I little to make my contribution, others also, but so that it works, developers also have to take part in the modding and in the animation of the community of modders. It is the principle of the "virtuous circle". The more of experience of game for the players, more sales of the game, more people who play it, the more mods, more sales, and so on...

A marketing error would be, in my mind to try to resell every module as a full game. Certainly, some players, of whom I am a member, would be ready to spend 40 dollars on each of these mini-games, but they would not enough be many to give a future to this game, which would eventually fall into oblivion.
Having already bought the paper version of almost all the Lock and Load modules, I don't think that it is necessary to resell them to me in computer version (Remind you that it is that in wanted to make the recording industry with the passage for the digital technology. We see where are the main actors of this time nowadays [;)]).

An important point is the respect for the work of the creators and the developers. The minimun of respect is to not try to make money on their back.
We have to distribute completly free of charge the mods which we create.
We do not either have to interfere with their marketing projects. For example: I had well advance on a project of a pacific mod. I put it of quoted because it should be made by developers. But, caution, it would not be necessary whether it is a new separate game (which costs 40 dollars for few graphic files and few rules modifications) but rather under the shape of a DLC for original games in a more friendly price (considering that it is a porterage of the paper version of Heroes of the pacific).

I do not know what the future will reserve for HOS but at least all the persons with whom I spoke about it are especially interested in the potential of this game rather than in its limited current shape.

[laska2k8]

I totally agree with all of you, I faced myself with problems using new counters and adding new nations, the custom folder is not the solution for all of our problems because some limitation are related to programming decisions (i.e. I don't need #ID in data files when it can be done easily dynamically at runtime). Take a look at some older wargames like 'operational art of war' or 'John Tiller's Campaign Series', they have a very good editor for maps and scenario.
The new commercial strategy by to sell DLC is a good way to add funds and life to games/companies, but it is valid if you pay less (or nothing) for the game. I don't pay full price for small addictions.
The apps market of the smartphone is in front of you.

Matrix Games do the same thing, new game and a bunch of new DLC's.
So don't expect wonderful features for the scenario editor, a new 'Pacific' DLC is on the way.

[jonj01]

ORIGINAL: laska2k4

I totally agree with all of you, I faced myself with problems using new counters and adding new nations, the custom folder is not the solution for all of our problems because some limitation are related to programming decisions (i.e. I don't need #ID in data files when it can be done easily dynamically at runtime). Take a look at some older wargames like 'operational art of war' or 'John Tiller's Campaign Series', they have a very good editor for maps and scenario.
The new commercial strategy by to sell DLC is a good way to add funds and life to games/companies, but it is valid if you pay less (or nothing) for the game. I don't pay full price for small addictions.
The apps market of the smartphone is in front of you.

Matrix Games do the same thing, new game and a bunch of new DLC's.
So don't expect wonderful features for the scenario editor, a new 'Pacific' DLC is on the way.

I love your cynical view. You are probably correct. the editor may continue to be a pain in the ass. It hasn't stopped any of us.

They need to fix the LOS.

The AI could use a lot of work as well. Modding the AI has created great mods like "stainless steel" for total war(medieval 2). the AI in that mod is very good.

but we don't have access to the AI in this game.

that's a project i would gladly spend 100's hours on...the development of an AI that could attack like a human opponent.

[maitrebongo]

Not summits no unfounded accusation to the creators or to the developers.
I think exactly that they are, at the moment very present, on the forum and very reactive on the solutions to the bugs which appeared since the launch of the game (Can be not rather fast for some of us[;)]).
In any case, they have never said that they dropped the community of modders.
I think exactly that "Lock'n Load Publishing" is a company really different from others by its particular spirit which seems not at all venal(mercantile).
I really appreciated the small presents that they made from time to time in players (scenarios, counters, surprises...). I think that kind of gesture (that spirit) is a security of sustainability and dynamism for the community.
And a satisfied community is a good thing to sell this particular kind of game. The community promotes this one on wargaming social networks, attracting more players towards this system. On the other hand, a disappointed community can destroy easily and inequitably a game which has nevertheless a lot of potential, it is sensitive [:(].
In my opinion, "Heroes of the Pacific" should be a DLC and not sold more expensive than a DTP game. To sell it as a full game would be a rough mistake.