Guards Status Units

[carlkay58]

I would like to note that the change on SU effect on number of wins is that it ONLY applies to Soviet Corps. That is the change would not be apparent until the Soviets start forming corps - Cavalry Corps in November/December 41 and the rest in 42. This change has no effect on the crediting of victories or formation of guards units from divisions or lower sized units. Since there are plenty of AARs out there that have been done on games with the new code that show Soviet Guard units in 41, I don't think it is a problem with the game.

That said, perhaps Wheat made it very difficult for you to gain victories with your units. In order to do so he would have had to make sure that he suffered no held results in any of his attacks against you (since a hold on defense is a victory). He would also have had to be very careful in what he allowed you to attack - from what you have said he has built a ZOC buffer around his spearheads which you had to penetrate to counter attack. In order to do those things, Wheat had to play a conservative Axis game which he probably did since you are still around at this point.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I would like to note that the change on SU effect on number of wins is that it ONLY applies to Soviet Corps. That is the change would not be apparent until the Soviets start forming corps - Cavalry Corps in November/December 41 and the rest in 42. This change has no effect on the crediting of victories or formation of guards units from divisions or lower sized units. Since there are plenty of AARs out there that have been done on games with the new code that show Soviet Guard units in 41, I don't think it is a problem with the game.

That said, perhaps Wheat made it very difficult for you to gain victories with your units. In order to do so he would have had to make sure that he suffered no held results in any of his attacks against you (since a hold on defense is a victory). He would also have had to be very careful in what he allowed you to attack - from what you have said he has built a ZOC buffer around his spearheads which you had to penetrate to counter attack. In order to do those things, Wheat had to play a conservative Axis game which he probably did since you are still around at this point.

Actually, according to forum sources, the win/loss records from 1941 do affect the Corps later in the game, because the individual division's win/loss gets averaged into the Corps they form.

Wheat shielded or buffered everything... with a massive "Panzer Mob" behind the shield that managed to penetrate every defensive line in 100-150 mile slashes per turn that left each turn ended with shields around the tanks and penetration corridors that were unassailable. If I had fought forward and attacked in the reduced blizzard, I would have been crushed in pockets and defeated by 1943. Depth of defense was no defense at all, until the Corps were formed in 43, at which time he was stalled at a line from lake Onega (north) to just behind Moskow (which he took), to the river behind Stalingrad (which he took), to Grozny (which he took). Baku and the mountains south were not taken because they were defended by Corp by the time he got there. The rest of the line stiffened up and began to push back as the Corps were formed. By Jan 1944, he has been pushed back to Rostov, Voronezh, Tula, Moskow, and the southern tip of Lake Onega.

At this point, the Soviet Army has just begun to have a CV capable of generating retreat results against the Germans, and this can only be accomplished by having two seperate lines of Corps (stuffed with sappers and tanks regiments) attack the same hexes sequentially. Even doing this, the results are only a mix of about 30%-40% retreats, with the rest "holds".(and, yes... I cycled the the air units and troops from front to rear to raise morale the entire game.)

I'm just saying, if the German plays a good game in 41-42, it's a steep road for the Russians. What neither Wheat, nor I, know yet is whether the mechanics of the game will melt the German Army in 44-45. He is being pushed back and he tells me he has noticed a decline in his manpower (at 4.2 million). I see the Russian Army is rising again (at 8 million) and climbing. The Corps are all stacked three deep and stuffed with sappers and tanks across the entire line now, and the rest of the AP will be spent adding reinforcing artillery, rockets, and specialty SU... so the battle will heat up. Will it be enough to reach Berlin ? I don't know. We'll see.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

I'm just saying, if the German plays a good game in 41-42, it's a steep road for the Russians. What neither Wheat, nor I, know yet is whether the mechanics of the game will melt the German Army in 44-45. He is being pushed back and he tells me he has noticed a decline in his manpower (at 4.2 million). I see the Russian Army is rising again (at 8 million) and climbing. The Corps are all stacked three deep and stuffed with sappers and tanks across the entire line now, and the rest of the AP will be spent adding reinforcing artillery, rockets, and specialty SU... so the battle will heat up. Will it be enough to reach Berlin ? I don't know. We'll see.

The German army can definitely hold its own in '44 and '45 with a solid defensive commander who knows how to maximize fort building and the use of timely retreats. Wrapping up a Stalingrad to Berlin campaign against such an opponent, and even with close to 11M men it's hard to break a German army of around 4M that properly manages forts and reserves. That said, it's probably a razor thin line - hang around in the wrong spot for a few extra turns and it could be good night.

[morvael]

And that's why German morale bug should be fixed.

[Gabriel B.]

The division on top of the stack when first formed, gives the corps combat record .

So if you form a corps from 1 division with 15 wins and the other 2 with 0, the win record does not get averaged to 5.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: morvael

And that's why German morale bug should be fixed.

I do have trouble keeping track of all the assorted morale issues...which one are we referring to now?

[Wheat]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

It pains me to read this thread. GamesaurusRex, your main problem was that you didn't attack during blizzard. If you don't attack during blizzard your troops will not gain morale and your opponent doesn't lose morale.

Ahem, I think Bozo's experience here should count for something GR. I did pull back all my good stuff, leaving a lot of ripe targets to get some wins. Some limited attacks during the 1st blizzard would have given some wins and with the cream of the Wehrmacht away, it would have been pretty safe to do so.

[Wheat]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

That said, perhaps Wheat made it very difficult for you to gain victories with your units. In order to do so he would have had to make sure that he suffered no held results in any of his attacks against you (since a hold on defense is a victory). He would also have had to be very careful in what he allowed you to attack - from what you have said he has built a ZOC buffer around his spearheads which you had to penetrate to counter attack. In order to do those things, Wheat had to play a conservative Axis game which he probably did since you are still around at this point.

I did indeed play conservative, had only a few helds and tried to limit his counterattacks. He still should have and imo, could have, done some attacks during the 1st blizzard.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: morvael

And that's why German morale bug should be fixed.

I do have trouble keeping track of all the assorted morale issues...which one are we referring to now?

German national morale 70 in the entire 1942-1945 period.

[Wheat]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

The German army can definitely hold its own in '44 and '45 with a solid defensive commander who knows how to maximize fort building and the use of timely retreats. Wrapping up a Stalingrad to Berlin campaign against such an opponent, and even with close to 11M men it's hard to break a German army of around 4M that properly manages forts and reserves. That said, it's probably a razor thin line - hang around in the wrong spot for a few extra turns and it could be good night.

Well, I know nothing of how to do this, and the German High Command keeps taking my troops for some fictious "Western front". Really, my numbers have to drop looking at all the withdrawals over the next several months. Where is a good German defensive commander when you need one?

I am not sure at all how many fort lines to build, what to put on reserver status etc. Forts frankly mystify me.
GamesaurusRex's CV's grow and grow, mine shrink and shrink.

If something is not done, he will be in Berlin by 45. In an informal poll I took of forum members, 78% DO NOT WANT
GamesaurusRex to reach Berlin. So, any help is appreciated. Stop telling him how to use stuff Bozo!

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: Wheat

He still should have and imo, could have, done some attacks during the 1st blizzard.

This looks like the main moral to be drawn from this sad tale: no matter how bad the situation is for the Soviet side in December 41, they must attack then because it's the only good chance they will have, for a very long time.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Wheat


Well, I know nothing of how to do this, and the German High Command keeps taking my troops for some fictious "Western front". Really, my numbers have to drop looking at all the withdrawals over the next several months. Where is a good German defensive commander when you need one?

I am not sure at all how many fort lines to build, what to put on reserver status etc. Forts frankly mystify me.
GamesaurusRex's CV's grow and grow, mine shrink and shrink.

If something is not done, he will be in Berlin by 45. In an informal poll I took of forum members, 78% DO NOT WANT
GamesaurusRex to reach Berlin. So, any help is appreciated. Stop telling him how to use stuff Bozo!

I'll let someone more qualified with GHQ than me handle this - generally by using Axis Allies, FZs and regiments in the rear of your lines you should be able to slowly fall back upon row of row of level 2 or even 3 forts...eventually the front gets too long for your forces (as may be the case for you now) and retreat to a preplanned position (again, with the ubiquitous FZs) back to the West, repeat. Panzer divisions in reserve mode can be devastating to any but the most powerful attacks. Of course, if you are playing to truly "win" this is not going to work out, but most German players by 43/44 are playing not to lose.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: Wheat

He still should have and imo, could have, done some attacks during the 1st blizzard.

This looks like the main moral to be drawn from this sad tale: no matter how bad the situation is for the Soviet side in December 41, they must attack then because it's the only good chance they will have, for a very long time.

agree, in essence there are two reasons. One is for Gds. The other is in combination with the attrition rules, even using the mild blizzard its the one time you can trade manpower at 0.8-1 (in your favour), even after a battering in 41 you have should have manpower though you may be struggling for armaments), regaining ground is a secondary issue

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

The division on top of the stack when first formed, gives the corps combat record .

So if you form a corps from 1 division with 15 wins and the other 2 with 0, the win record does not get averaged to 5.

??????????????????If this is true... how utterly absurd... and exploitable.

Morvale, have you seen this ??

Is this a fact ??? If so, this is the undocumented exploit that I have been missing that explains the missing guards units. If win/loss records are able to be manipulated like this, they are fatally flawed. The win/loss record of merged units should be averaged.

[GamesaurusRex]

I don't know what the game is doing when it forms Corps.

Just tested three cases:
(these are ordered by stack order)

3 Divs... 2/1 0/1 and 0/0... result = 0/1... WTF ???

3 Divs... 2/0 1/0 and 0/0... result = 2/0.

3 Divs... 2/13 2/1 and 0/0... result = 2/13.

Morvael, please explain what is going on here.

[M60A3TTS]

How do you ensure the division with the most wins ends up on the top of the stack?

I've never needed this. When I want guards corps, I form it from two guards divisions and a rifle brigade with a morale of 50.

[GamesaurusRex]

I assume Gabriel meant the "top division" is the division shown at the top right of the list that is displayed when you highlight one stack. A little experimentation will show you that the first division moved into a hex is placed at the "top" of that display list.

I'm not sure yet exactly how the win/loss record of each Corp is being calculated when each Corp is formed, but it certainly isn't averaging the Divisional numbers. Gabriel seems to think they can be manipulated by placement in the stack. If so, it's an exploitable bug.

[M60A3TTS]

The first division to a hex does not consistently end up on top.

[timmyab]

It's the unit with the highest unit # that goes on top.

[M60A3TTS]

Thanks Timmy. That in itself shows you it's not something even worth trying to exploit.