(No AU Tiger please) Dive bombers encountering flak over bases - any tips?

[Walker84]

While trying to close down the airfield on Koepang I was shocked by the apparent effectiveness of the Flak guarding the base. I know the British 18th division is there, but not sure what ancillary units may also have been deployed. Here's what the CR told....

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Morning Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 28
G3M2 Nell x 33

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 9 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5 Catalina: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 39

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb



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Afternoon Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 89
D3A1 Val x 124

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 50 damaged
D3A1 Val: 24 destroyed by flak The intel report actually shows 48 D3A1s shot down by flak [:(]

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 36

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
16 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb



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Having seen the Nells bombing from 10k emerge more or less unscathed, I have to conclude that the heavy losses came from the dive bombing routine with the Vals releasing their payload from 1-3k. I'm not sure how realistic these losses to Allied close range AA weapons are in April 42, however I have no way of telling at the moment how much my opponent may have overloaded the base with AA.

Does anyone else have any impressions - was I simply unlucky with the die roll, or is this to be expected when employing dive bombers against well-defended bases? I guess I'm unlikely to go in like this again as I have now lost several months worth of Val replacements for little gain.

[wdolson]

I believe most of the shoot downs are happening after the dive bombers drop when they are trying to get out of there at low altitude. If there is a lot of light flak at the base, they will probably get chewed up.

Bill

[dr.hal]

Despite the Stuka example in Russia and the run through France, I think attacking ground forces with dive bombers is a mistake. Although your losses seem to be high, it is certainly conceivable as a British division like the 18th would have a lot of Lewis machine guns and other low level AA capability. I would certainly stick with the Nells and other level bombers keeping them out of small arms range.

[Spidery]

Not sure how many losses you may have taken from barrage balloons. Koepang is likely well fortified so may have lots of balloons. I think you can see the effect of balloons in the messages during the combat animation.

[dr.hal]

Wow, never even thought about balloons! Let us know if they were a factor!

[crsutton]

British and Indian infantry divisions tend to have very good AA assets-especially later in the war. Even with the old stock game I would never use DBs to attack a fortified base and with the new AA formulas found in the betas and Da Babes mod, it just does not pay. Both sides in the real deal discovered this pretty fast.

[Xargun]

Don't forget the fact that Vals will die if you look at them mean enough. I have noticed it doesn't take much to down a Val.

[Walker84]

Thanks for all of the feedback.

My opponent did claim in his latest post that Koepang was indeed a flak trap and, although this is a stock game, I guess the AAA is stronger now that we are using the latest betas. I forgot to note the effect of barrage balloons - all I could see through the red mist was 'Val destroyed' far too many times!

So, I guess we are left with a cautionary tale for all those proponents of naval air power - fight ships only unless you are absolutely sure of the ground you are walking on!

[czert2]

how do you fidn if base is defended by baloons or not ?

[Insano]

You could have used the Vals at level bombing alt - 9000. Less accurate but still a few bonus bombs on target. I'd have to check 10000 may switch to dive bombing. In general highly skilled Vals are too valuable for use in routine airfield bombing. They are your ship killers and only hope of hitting a DD from the air.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: czert2

how do you fidn if base is defended by baloons or not ?

Well, only one way that I know of....[;)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: czert2

how do you fidn if base is defended by baloons or not ?

It's in the manual. A base of a certain size or above gets them, and the larger the base the more it gets.

[geofflambert]

You need to not use Navy forces against land targets, except maybe ports. You will run out of trained air crews quickly. Make the Army handle it.

[czert2]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: czert2

how do you fidn if base is defended by baloons or not ?

Well, only one way that I know of....[;)]

Muhahahaha, you are so mean.