China

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PaxMondo
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RE: China

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Or you can create strings of dot bases along the road with supply caps - which will be raised by each level of fortification, airbase and port, requiring Eng units to do the construction work.

LST,

nice appraoch using ports inland like that. Sorry to inform you that I am "borrowing" your concept (in a Lend-Lease fashion) for my own mod. [;)]
Pax
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: China

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

No objections [:)].

The very idea of posting was sharing the concept for anyone who may find it useful - or to be brought down to earth by more knowledgable people explaining "this won't work" [;)]

I have borrowed many things for my mod from the forum as well - it is a great asset that there are so many players spreading useful information, ideas etc. and you can pick and take what you want.

Btw, thanks John, can't wait to see your data [8D]
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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

Ok, so digging into the details, Squads:
Germany had a Military Mission to China. The scope and details are immaterial to this thread. But it had an impact on the squad level makeup of the NRA. The basic squad, organizationally, was supposed to consist of 14 men, each squad with an LMG, the remainder armed with bolt-action rifles. But the Chinese used the grenade launcher extensively and the Germans had no experience with the weapon, so off it went into company level echelon, along with the troops. Thus, Chinese squads went from 14 to 10 men, due to echeloning.

Concatenating the weapon systems, much like the IJ paradigm, one can envision an “A” level Chinese squad with an LMG and an abstraction of grenade launchers. This is reasonably utile, given the records of incoming units to Yunan-Force, where the standard armament was an equal number of LMGs and GLs (54 each, per Regt). So, just like what was done with the IJA, there’s a “first tier” of Chinese squads that are abstracted into a game organization.

And then there was a “second” tier that might have been organized, but wasn’t equipped to that standard. This is where the lack of English language sources comes home to roost. Apocrypha says the main Central units were using a quasi-Western organization: a company with rifle platoons and an MG platoon and with GLs interspersed throughout.

So … there’s two different kinds of nominal Chinese squads. Golly. And there’s two more different kinds. Golly. And they evolved over time. Golly. Talk about grainy. Woof !!!
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mike scholl 1
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RE: China

Post by mike scholl 1 »

Symon. I LOVE it. The idea that the Japanese could suddenly conquer China during the middle of the war when they hadn't been able to do it during the 5 years when it was all they had to deal with (1937-41) seemed ludicrous. [8|]
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Blind Sniper
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RE: China

Post by Blind Sniper »

Symon, do you have a released date?
NO pressure at all, I will start a new PBEM CG game (DaBabes 28C) and I'm just wondering if can be feasible waiting your mod [:)]
WitP-AE - WitE - CWII - BASPM - BaB

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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Symon. I LOVE it. The idea that the Japanese could suddenly conquer China during the middle of the war when they hadn't been able to do it during the 5 years when it was all they had to deal with (1937-41) seemed ludicrous. [8|]
Thank you Mike, but maybe they still can. It's the tension between playing it right or playing like usual weenie suspects. We ignore the 'gamey' weasels. Our paradigm is for those who wish to play things "righteouly". Squirrels, and gophers, and rabbits need not apply.

Ciao. JWE
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wdolson
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RE: China

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: General Patton

The allies planned and started to build a road from Ledo to china. Can a mod or some kind of system be built into the game were you use engineers to build roads in the game? For example; 4 eng batt can built a 1 hex road through a jungle hex in 6 months with x amount of supply. And the map will update to show the road.... Just some random idea. But if we could build a road hex in game it would make things interesting.
GP
ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Don't think it's possible. I recall several occasions when this was brought up in the past

During development we had a long discussion about adding the ability to builds roads and railroads. It would have been a tremendous amount of work and ultimately it was dropped. Not only is the road thing relevant to Burma and Thailand, but the Can-Am highway was built during the war too.

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mike scholl 1
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RE: China

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Symon
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Symon. I LOVE it. The idea that the Japanese could suddenly conquer China during the middle of the war when they hadn't been able to do it during the 5 years when it was all they had to deal with (1937-41) seemed ludicrous. [8|]
Thank you Mike, but maybe they still can. It's the tension between playing it right or playing like usual weenie suspects. We ignore the 'gamey' weasels. Our paradigm is for those who wish to play things "righteouly". Squirrels, and gophers, and rabbits need not apply.

Ciao. JWE

But at least you made an effort to make it more difficult for the weasels to get away with such stupidity, [:D]
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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

[:D][:D][:D]

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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

This is very simplified, suitable for abstraction, but in no way detailed or complete. The main difference between Central and Provincial forces is that Central forces came from the nation at large: they were raised, trained (kinda), equipped (kinda) and paid (rarely) by the Central Govt, so their loyalty (such as it was) was to Chaing. Provisional forces were raised, trained (maybe), equipped (kinda) and paid (more rarely) by the Provincial Governors. PGs might have been warlords in the Nationalist period, but were nominally appointed by, and variably loyal to, the KMT regime. However, since the troops were armed paid by the PGs, their loyalty lay with whoever filled their rice-bowl: they bore watching.

There were warlords (PGs) and then there were warlords (PGs). Just being a PG does not imply incompetence, per se. Venality, corruption, and efficiency were pretty evenly distributed. The main effect was in the distribution of the highly scarce support weapons and lend-lease equipment, as it became available. All that stuff went to Chiang’s supporters. But that doesn’t mean that Provincial units were always peasants with rifles: several of them got the good stuff, while Central units got bupkis.

Anyway, at the beginning of 1943, there were 235 identified divisions, of which 94 were nominally Central Army forces, 134 were nominally Provincial forces, and 7 are of indeterminate or miscellaneous origin. In addition, there were 11 Reserve Divisions and 51 Provisional Divisions. All 11 ResDivs and 21 of the ProvDivs were Central Army forces, 14 were Sichuan Provincial forces, 5 were raised by the NW Army and the remaining 11 came from diverse provincial sources. They were more like specific, directed manpower reserves than front-line operational units. So, technically, there were 297 identified divisions, of which 126 were nominally Central Army forces, and 164 were nominally Provincial forces.

Central Army:
1 Honor, 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 18, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28, 34, 36, 40, 43, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 67, 77, 78, 79, 80, 83, 84, 85, 87, 88, 89, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 103, 109, 110, 117, 118, 121, 140, 185, 190, 191, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, N1, N3, N22, N23, N26, N28, N29, N30, N33, N34, N35
Quasi Central Army:
5, 6, 7, 8, 12, 44, 47, 54, 56, 75, 76, N24, N27
NE Area:
105, 108, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 130
NW Area:
20, 22, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 37, 38, 39, 74, 81, 100, 106, 132, 143, 168, N4, N6
Hunan Area:
15, 16, 19, 62, 63, 107, 192
Henan Area:
64, 65
Yunnan Area:
179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, N10, N11, N12
Shanxi Area:
66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 101, 139, 141, 142, N2, N31, N32
Shaanxi Area:
17, 42, 86, 128, 165, 166, 169, 177
Sichuan Area:
104, 119, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 133, 134, 136, 137, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 161, 162, 163, 164, 167, 178, N7, N9, N13, N14, N15, N16, N17, N18, N21, N25, N37
Guangdong Area:
59, 90, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 186, 187, 170, N19
Guangxi Area:
131, 135, 138, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 188, 189,
Guizhou Area:
102, N8
Status Indeterminate:
41, 45, 46, 82, N5
Puppet Troops that Defected
N20, N36

[ed] Oh, yes, N just means New Division. It's merely an identifier for historiacl clarity. It has no bearing whatsoever on the unit's TOE, training, or anything else.
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treespider
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RE: China

Post by treespider »

I've been toying with the idea of creating separate and limited device/squad pools for the warlord/provincial armies. Chiang is noted for ordering these armies away from their home provinces and allowing them to wither on the vine.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: treespider
I've been toying with the idea of creating separate and limited device/squad pools for the warlord/provincial armies. Chiang is noted for ordering these armies away from their home provinces and allowing them to wither on the vine.
Spidey !!! Dude !!! That's exactly what we are doing !!! Couple days and all the different squad developments will be here. All it takes is figuring out what kind of squad goes into which unit, and that's easy, yeah?? [;)] And of course, there's build rate and pool specifity for each and all. Squad tools are coming soon, along with rational, specific, internal build specs that modders can adjust to their own procilvities. Toys are for nubiles [:D][:D]
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
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treespider
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RE: China

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Symon
ORIGINAL: treespider
I've been toying with the idea of creating separate and limited device/squad pools for the warlord/provincial armies. Chiang is noted for ordering these armies away from their home provinces and allowing them to wither on the vine.
Spidey !!! Dude !!! That's exactly what we are doing !!! Couple days and all the different squad developments will be here. All it takes is figuring out what kind of squad goes into which unit, and that's easy, yeah?? [;)] And of course, there's build rate and pool specifity for each and all. Squad tools are coming soon, along with rational, specific, internal build specs that modders can adjust to their own procilvities. Toys are for nubiles [:D][:D]


Spot on. Just wish I had more time...spent the other day at NARA going over OSS docs...

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Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Big B
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RE: China

Post by Big B »

Trying to get a realistic China is addicting... is it not? [:D]
ORIGINAL: Symon
ORIGINAL: treespider
I've been toying with the idea of creating separate and limited device/squad pools for the warlord/provincial armies. Chiang is noted for ordering these armies away from their home provinces and allowing them to wither on the vine.
Spidey !!! Dude !!! That's exactly what we are doing !!! Couple days and all the different squad developments will be here. All it takes is figuring out what kind of squad goes into which unit, and that's easy, yeah?? [;)] And of course, there's build rate and pool specifity for each and all. Squad tools are coming soon, along with rational, specific, internal build specs that modders can adjust to their own procilvities. Toys are for nubiles [:D][:D]
Mac Linehan
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RE: China

Post by Mac Linehan »

John, Gents -

Really good stuff, another awesome surprise from the Team. Thinking out of the box is the only way to go. My respect and appreciation to all of you for your hard work.


Count me in!

Mac
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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: China

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: treespider

Spot on. Just wish I had more time...spent the other day at NARA going over OSS docs...

[X(]

Not doing things by halves, eh? [&o]

I really like your earlier mod and am impatiently awaiting the 2.1 version. I'm doing my own mod as a poor substitute simply because the waiting time is so long...
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treespider
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RE: China

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
ORIGINAL: treespider

Spot on. Just wish I had more time...spent the other day at NARA going over OSS docs...

[X(]

Not doing things by halves, eh? [&o]

I really like your earlier mod and am impatiently awaiting the 2.1 version. I'm doing my own mod as a poor substitute simply because the waiting time is so long...


Now that I live in the DC area I can make full use of the resources available... however like I mentioned above, I wish I had more time... I now spend 2.5-3 hours total commuting every day, whereas when I was in Knoxville I spent 30-45 minutes a day commuting.

Symon (John) is correct in his assessment of the Chinese capabilities and much of what I will be doing will be similar in nature...however, I will be retaining the sea of dot bases I introduced in China each with their own little garrison requirement. So if the Japanese decide they want to take more teriitory they are going to have to come up with the forces to garrison it...on the flip side the Chinese will continue to face supply challenges and a number of units flipping to puppet status as the war winds on.

China was not static in the time frame 1941-1943. The Japanese launched a number of offensives prior to Ichigo that, although they did not occupy the territory they advanced into and eventually withdrew back to their start lines, the action served to grind down and wear away the Chinese. By the time of Ichigo many of the chinese units simply melted away in 1944.

It's tricky balance to strike, especially if the Japanese decide they want to reinforce China from Manchuria which is why I've implemented certain restrictions on the manchurian garrison.

Unfortunately my mod will be a long time coming due to my time restrictions.

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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Symon
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RE: China

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Big B
Trying to get a realistic China is addicting... is it not? [:D]
Addicting as hell !! There were several instances of certain Provincial Governors forbidding defeated troops of a neighboring Province from crossing a river (border) into their Province, thereby causing the complete destruction of the next-door Provincial Forces. How to model this? I'm clearing my mask and purging my regulator and diving deep into the ins-and-outs of the pwhexe system and its relationship to the code.

Maybe, just maybe, I can find something simple and straight forward that I can propose to Michael, that won't bend the stock system. A simple attribute cut-off should do the trick - there's room for it, not much, but some. Baby steps. [8D]

Ciao. John
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
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treespider
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RE: China

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: Big B
Trying to get a realistic China is addicting... is it not? [:D]
Addicting as hell !! There were several instances of certain Provincial Governors forbidding defeated troops of a neighboring Province from crossing a river (border) into their Province, thereby causing the complete destruction of the next-door Provincial Forces. How to model this? I'm clearing my mask and purging my regulator and diving deep into the ins-and-outs of the pwhexe system and its relationship to the code.

Maybe, just maybe, I can find something simple and straight forward that I can propose to Michael, that won't bend the stock system. A simple attribute cut-off should do the trick - there's room for it, not much, but some. Baby steps. [8D]

Ciao. John

I'm guessing "provinicial" borders (read -nations) with limitations on access to those "territories"... or perhaps its something else...
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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oldman45
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RE: China

Post by oldman45 »

My question is, did the Japanese ever really entertain the idea of taking over all of China? I was under the impression that they just wanted the coastal and industrial centers.
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