Oil Rule Way Too Much The Handicap for Axis

[Auchinleck]

I have decided once more to start the war over again. The only way I'll be able to have any fun playing the bad guys side, is to play without the Oil Rule. With the Oil Rule, I've found that Japan is continously crippled from being able to reorganize ANY units from lack of oil, and that's with just reinforcing static combat in China, without having sailed even one single Battleship or Carrier anyplace. It's not quite as bad with Germany, but when you have 2 points of oil, and you're being told you need 4.5 points just to reorganize your ground and air forces, it leaves even the Germans weak, in the early stage of the game, when they historically would be the strongest. I can't begin to comprehend how Japan would be able to battle against the American Navy, for even 1 turn, let alone 3 turns, (6 months of game time that Yamamoto was able to create havoc for America historically), once that part of the war starts. As interesting as the Oil Rule concept seems to be, I continue to experience that it is too much the handicap for the Axis players right from the get go, to be able to even make any kind of contest with it in play.

[paulderynck]

Germany gets 7 oil every turn. 1 German, 1 Austrian, 3 Rumanian, and 2 from Russia (until at war with Russia). If you spend too much on production, you will have oil problems, although early on, Germany has enough regular resources for most of its factories.

Japan gets 4 per turn early on.

But playing without oil may be a better choice for learning the game without getting having to concentrate on logistics.

[Centuur]

Actually, Germany gets 6. One of the Rumanian oil is send to Italy...

And I agree that it is better to learn the game if you play without the oil rules. If you've find out how the different units interact with eachother, than it's time to start putting a lot of flavour in, including oil...

[AxelNL]

I am still not using the oil rule myself. I'll perhaps start using it playing as allied in netplay [8D]
Nor partisans - also a distraction. But I am inclined to say that favours the Axis. In my current GW scenario the Germans are already in the foothills of the Urals summer 1942 after a very successful French Campaign.
Nor the pilots/carrier planes - without those the game also speeds up imho.

[Auchinleck]

I don't see how you can say 'if you spend too much on production'. If you don't spend enough on production, you won't have enough of a force to defeat yourself as the French and British, who I have no problem building a pretty solid defensive wall, even if the Germans decide to attack with armor from the Ardennes, as they did historically. I think part of the problem is playing against one's self. It's pretty hard to surprise the enemy, when you're playing as both sides.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

You crack the Frencch line with airpower, and lots of it. Concentrate your stukas, make sure you get flips in those open hexes southeast of Lille, get your ARM and Mech together, and blow through (probably with an O-Chit) at like 7:1 odds. France doesn't have a whole lot of space to fall back to, so usually 3 good attacks and you're in Paris.


EDIT: This isn't really a game about surprise. I annoy my teammates in my weekly Vassal game by often blithering about what I'm thinking at any given moment, oft-times giving away immediate plans. IMO, it really doesn't matter. This game is in some ways a lot like chess, what's a good play is dictated by board position, not out of a sudden will to surprise the opponent. Similarly, attacks flow from having an advantage at a hex, not because "Hey, he won't see it if I hit hex X"


You shouldn't have to surprise the French "player", you should just be able to bowl him over with your superior force as of M/J 40, if you're doing a historical German plan.


Edit#2.

If it's not too much trouble, what are you building for say, the first 3 turns with Germany, the CW, and France?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

A few really good attacks are much better than more attacks at slightly poorer odds.

In fact, attacks at poor odds should be avoided (especially by Germany early in the war) because they lose some units and disorganize others. You should threaten to do a lot of attacks - so the defender has to keep his frontline strong everywhere. But then concentrate your air power (ground strikes) on the clear hexes and pile on the armor/mech with a designated 'hit' taker - just in case.

If Germany makes a lot of mediocre attacks, it is easy to get bogged down, or need additional units to replace losses.

Timing the DOW on the Netherlands, followed by the DOW on Belgium, is important. Once the Netherlands has fallen, Belgium is much more vulnerable during the surprise impulse. And then France & the BEF have to defend a lot of clear terrain between Brussels and Paris.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

A few really good attacks are much better than more attacks at slightly poorer odds.

In fact, attacks at poor odds should be avoided (especially by Germany early in the war) because they lose some units and disorganize others. You should threaten to do a lot of attacks - so the defender has to keep his frontline strong everywhere. But then concentrate your air power (ground strikes) on the clear hexes and pile on the armor/mech with a designated 'hit' taker - just in case.

If Germany makes a lot of mediocre attacks, it is easy to get bogged down, or need additional units to replace losses.

Timing the DOW on the Netherlands, followed by the DOW on Belgium, is important. Once the Netherlands has fallen, Belgium is much more vulnerable during the surprise impulse. And then France & the BEF have to defend a lot of clear terrain between Brussels and Paris.

For the Axis, I always calculate that, using the 2D10 table, all attacks which are +10 or less, should only be done if the result of that attack is of the utmost importance. If not, don't attack. Never, ever. The one thing the Axis can't deal with is early war losses of important units. They will never recover from that. Never.

The goal of the game for the Axis is to stay alive until the clock ends for the Allies. So every unit lost in an attack the Axis makes is one loss to many. Save you ARM/MECH and white print MOT and INF for the days ahead. Lose a MIL or a division now and than? No problem, but even than: be careful and don't attack out of frustration...

[Numdydar]

Easier said than done huh Centnur [:D]?

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I'm going to have to be the dissenting voice, I guess. Sure, you don't want to throw units away, but the Allies are always going to eventually outbuild the Axis. This means you're on a tight schedule, and you have to get in some serious body blows before the clock runs out if you hope to win. In a lot of ways, it's more important to knock out France quickly than it is to knock out France cheaply.

Again, you don't want to lose too many guys, especially your expensive ARM, MECH, and air units, but if some MiL and Motdivs bite it, well, you pays your money, you takes your chances. I usually expect to lose 20-35 BP worth of stuff in Poland, low countries, and France as the Germans, although that counts O-Chits. And the French front isn't like the Soviet front. With the Soviets, you want to do really high odds attacks, so your units can stay face up, and you can keep rolling as long as possible. There's a lot of space to occupy, so you can't afford to flip too many units. The French are narrow enough that you probably can't even get all of your land units on the front line, and only 3 hexes to Paris starting from Belgium. The sorts of attacks that lose you a division but take the hex are usually worthwhile against the French.

[paulderynck]

A lot of people are reluctant to use both O-chits in France because they want to "save" one for Russia. But judicious use of both can end up with France gone much earlier and the extra production from that will replace the O-chit you "saved".

[celebrindal]

The other thing too is once your cruising into russia, if you do it right, you end up with a butt load of oil fairly quickly..

It can't be overstated to say you MUST hit iraq aim for the south and activate the turks if you can.. it caused me to have a weak line for hitting the russians but even tho i'm only at the first river line in the south after half a year i've already captured the 4 baku area oil, aligned Iraq and am about to liberate persia.. needless to say even with saving oil I might now be tossing resources away shortly

Japan took the big hit and built both synth plants and even tho I've been cut off for oil for the last 3 turns I haven't noticed as i've kept my oil costs to 1 or less a turn and am still banking.. had 8 saved up when I hit the CW last turn and am about to now go after the rest of the world..

M/A 42..

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Wait a second, you did a 42 Barbarossa and still drove to Baku, without aligning Persia? How did that happen? The Soviets shouldn't have crumbled that badly.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Wait a second, you did a 42 Barbarossa and still drove to Baku, without aligning Persia? How did that happen? The Soviets shouldn't have crumbled that badly.

Agreed. Barbarossa in 1942 usually can't end in the taking of Baku by Germany...

[Joseignacio]

Two Chits for taking France? usually I don't even need 1 if I recall well. But in case I needed, I think 1 should be more than enough for any reasonably decent german player no matter who is playing in front unless luck is really ter-ri-ble.

[CrusssDaddy]

A France player who can't force expenditure of an O-chit to frustrate a timely Vichy is a poor player.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

A France player who can't force expenditure of an O-chit to frustrate a timely Vichy is a poor player.

Or a very unlucky one...

[Extraneous]

The Axis are not the only ones effeced by the oil rules.


China
1x oil saved


France
1x oil saved

1x oil from Iraq (trade agreement)


Commonwealth
3x oil saved

1x oil from Burma
1x oil from Canada
2x oil from NEI (trade agreement)
1x oil from Persia (trade agreement)
3x oil from Venezuela (trade agreement)
1x oil from Trinidad, Port of Spain


Germany
4x oil saved

1x oil from Austria
1x oil from Germany
2x oil from Rumania (trade agreement)
2x oil from the USSR (Germany-USSR trade agreement (which can increase, or decrease, but it ends when Germany and the USSR go to war))


Italy
1x oil saved

1x oil from Rumania (trade agreement) (until Germany aligns Rumania then all Rumanian oil goes to Germany)


Japan
4x oil saved

2x oil from NEI (trade agreement)
2x oil from USA (until the Japan-USA convoy line is broken, US entry option 31. Oil embargo, or Japan and USA are at war)


USA
3x oil saved

2x oil to Japan (until the Japan-USA convoy line is broken, US entry option 31. Oil embargo, or Japan and USA are at war)
16x oil
3x oil from Venezuela (trade agreement)


The USSR
3x oil saved

8x oil
2x oil to Germany (Germany-USSR trade agreement (which can increase, or decrease, but it ends when Germany and the USSR go to war))

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

I believe the Soviets have 10 oil, and the U.S. only has 17 domestic.

[celebrindal]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Wait a second, you did a 42 Barbarossa and still drove to Baku, without aligning Persia? How did that happen? The Soviets shouldn't have crumbled that badly.

Agreed. Barbarossa in 1942 usually can't end in the taking of Baku by Germany...

Actually I hit them in J/A 41, had a short turn followed by crud weather and short turn in S/O.. I actually ended up on the defensive N/D 41.. wasn't looking all that great. Part of it was I had a HQ 2 armor and 2 inf in syria that aligned Iraq, and then drove across the desert to align turkey.. once I got supply back from that I hit baku and we are in M/A 42 with the north barely past minsk (although he has now run back), and in the south i'm just getting up to Kiev.. Down by turkey I've got 6 germans, and 6 turks causing greif and have isoloted, captured etc 9 resources.. so it seems to be almost worth it. If I don't attack (JF) he drops to 17 or so builds and is in low 20's when I do attack.. so now it's a matter of attrition.. the germs are sitting at 42 builds this turn, italians maxed out and storing lots of oil.

To be honest if the southern rear attack hadn't done as much economic damage as it seems to have I might have called it.. the front at this stage is still very fragile for the germans..