Guards Status Units

[morvael]

In my opinion it was to easy to get guard units in 1943 with the bug, but only if you attached support units to corps (however that resulted in many other problems with supply and combat value, so it was a tradeoff), but otherwise the thresholds look ok. The only problem I see is that Army HQs require insane number of wins, compared with the fact that usually you just get 1-2 deliberate battles per turn per army. Soviets had some guard armies in 1942, whereas I got my first in April '44. Of course partially my lack of aggressiveness is to blame, but I think it's hard to get a handful of them in late '42.

[M60A3TTS]

Vs. AI at Hard.

[Gabriel B.]

Any improvement AI behaviour on hard ?
I tryied chalenging, but it stil lacks any regard for flank protection.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

after all its realistic that there was not a guards units "spam" in the red army. in early versions of the game half of your army could be made of guards units by 1943.

I'm not saying the rate of formation is wrong (I'm not sure what the historic rate was)... I'm only suggesting that the game balance, as it was originally conceived, was significantly changed when Morvael fixed the double credit win bug (which I agree he should have done to make the game model work properly). I am also suggesting that many of the opinions that the Russian side was over-powered were formed prior to the fix and was due in part to the double credit formation rate of guards units. Many, if not most, of the AAR examples you point out were "pre-fix".

Furthermore, I am pointing out that, with the bug fixed, a careful German opponent can now effectively thwart the formation of guards units until much later in the game by simply not presenting his opponent "opportunity targets" in 41 and 42. With the required wins unchanged and the credited wins essentially cut in half (from where it was originally), the build up of guards units is a much slower process than the impression you get from looking at earlier patch AARs.

[GamesaurusRex]

and for Tarhunnas, since he asked so nicely...

I have captured a screenshot to a paint file on the desktop. If you will explain the steps needed to attach it to a post, I will attempt to do so.

The line is pretty simple to describe though. The Germans hold Rostov and the Don River as far as the Donets, then along the Donets to the town of Belaya Kalitva (hex Y128 Y95). From there, a straight line to Moskow, which they hold. From Moscow, a straight line through Torzhok to Vyshny Volochek (both held by Russia) and thence, north to the southern tip of lake Onega.

[GamesaurusRex]

One thing I did want to ask Morvael:

How does the game handle the "win/loss" record of divisions and brigades, when they are merged into Corps ?

Is it more advantageous to merge units based on morale levels or win/loss basis ?

I've been merging units based on morale matching. Maybe that has something to do with my low yield of guards, if I have been merging units that reduced the net win/loss of the Corp formed.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
I'm not saying the rate of formation is wrong (I'm not sure what the historic rate was)... I'm only suggesting that the game balance, as it was originally conceived, was significantly changed when Morvael fixed the double credit win bug (which I agree he should have done to make the game model work properly). I am also suggesting that many of the opinions that the Russian side was over-powered were formed prior to the fix and was due in part to the double credit formation rate of guards units. Many, if not most, of the AAR examples you point out were "pre-fix".

Personally, I think Guards units are a little over-rated and over-emphasized by people. They do get benefits in WITE, but it's not really like a unit gets a massive step up by becoming Guards, and that is in line with historical Guards formation. They never were elite units. They were simply units that proved themselves reliable, in Russian Army terms. In western army terms, a Russian Guards unit (particularly in 41-42) was simply a unit that was able to carry out basic manoeuvres, follow orders, and not melt away in combat. In other words, Guards are simply 'normal' combat units, whereas non-Guards started out as 2nd or 3rd rate units by western standards. Later in the war, Guards status shifted more towards an honorary title. Non-guards units can often be just as strong or stronger than some Guards units.

Furthermore, I am pointing out that, with the bug fixed, a careful German opponent can now effectively thwart the formation of guards units until much later in the game by simply not presenting his opponent "opportunity targets" in 41 and 42. With the required wins unchanged and the credited wins essentially cut in half (from where it was originally), the build up of guards units is a much slower process than the impression you get from looking at earlier patch AARs.

There are a lot of things in the game where a careful player can thwart stuff. A careful Russian player can thwart large encirclements in 41-42. Seems to me that's more a factor of gameplay, player style, or matching (or mis-matching, as the case may be) of player skill/experience.

In my games, Guards formation has always been notably ahead of historical schedule. It has always been fairly easy to get Guards units. Now, it's probably more in line with the historical formation rates. To reduce the rate of Guards formation seemed like the sensible thing to do...

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


How does the game handle the "win/loss" record of divisions and brigades, when they are merged into Corps ?

I'm pretty sure the win/loss record is averaged. If you merge 3 Tank Bdes with 3, 4, and 5 wins respectively, the new Tank Corps likely comes out with 4 wins.

I experimented with that aspect once, and that's the conclusion I came to. It's not something I've watched closely since.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

I have captured a screenshot to a paint file on the desktop. If you will explain the steps needed to attach it to a post, I will attempt to do so.

Do a reply to this thread using the "Reply" button (not fast reply at the bottom). In the Reply to Message window, write whatever you want to write as a comment to your picture, then click the little blue text at the bottom that says "Cleck here to upload". Follow the steps and select your screenshot. Finally, check the "Embed picture in post" box, click Ok and presto!

[M60A3TTS]

It's actually the "post reply" to the left of "fast reply"

[GamesaurusRex]

Per your request... You'll note the lack of "red" guard units.

The two armies are about one hex apart (from Moskow to the south) because the German Army decided to pull back last turn about three hexes to a new prepared line, since the old line had been broken in a couple of places.

[GamesaurusRex]

Test... (There you go Wheat ! The ultimate air recon giveaway... [:D])

[Wheat]

What recon? I already knew I was facing gazillions of angry Russians.

[Wheat]

Maybe I should start an AAR at this point. Not many games have gone this long. But you couldn't look at it GR until after the game is over. Then you could pour over it and have some real laughs!

[Tarhunnas]

Thanks Rex. That is really amazing! I wouldn't have thought it was possible to get to 1944 with so few Guards units! Sorry for doubting you earlier.

[GamesaurusRex]

That's what I have been trying to convey, Tar. Since Morvael fixed the double-credit bug, the number of "won" battles required to gain guards status has effectively doubled. Wheat is a skilled opponent, he executed a strong offensive in 41 and 42, while the entire time, he never left his troops overextended or vulnerable to counter-attack at turn's end.. The most "won" battles that any of the Corps has accumulated in this PBEM game with Wheat is six... and it's Jan 44.

I'm not sure, but it is possible that I have contributed to this situation by forming all my Corps units based upon the subunit's morale level, rather than their number of wins... but I don't think so, because the higher morale units should have had the higher win ratings anyway... but I didn't choose units to merge based on the "wins", since I was more concerned with building Russian morale level out of the 30s where they started in 41.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

It pains me to read this thread. GamesaurusRex, your main problem was that you didn't attack during blizzard. If you don't attack during blizzard your troops will not gain morale and your opponent doesn't lose morale. Then the whole game spirals out of control. It's as simple as that. Morvael's changes have nothing to do with it. Even the best German player can't prevent you to attack during the blizzard. But in this game you chose to dig in during blizzard and that was a mistake. You should start a new game and go for an all out attack during blizzard and you will be rewarded with many guard units.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

It pains me to read this thread. GamesaurusRex, your main problem was that you didn't attack during blizzard. If you don't attack during blizzard your troops will not gain morale and your opponent doesn't lose morale. Then the whole game spirals out of control. It's as simple as that. Morvael's changes have nothing to do with it. Even the best German player can't prevent you to attack during the blizzard. But in this game you chose to dig in during blizzard and that was a mistake. You should start a new game and go for an all out attack during blizzard and you will be rewarded with many guard units.

+1...not to be a jerk but so many of these threads are based off of "I have played this game once against this really good guy...and thus draw sweeping conclusions about many aspects of the game that I really don't have any grounds to be talking about." Sorry but true.

[GamesaurusRex]

Sorry, Bozo... (and please know I appreciate your comments, viewpoint, and help in instructing me in the nuances of this game !)

but I don't see that at all. Attacking was not an option in 41.

First, in order to attack... you have to have something to attack with. I never did. Wheat exterminated anything that I left in striking range of the German troops in 41. (That is, he destroyed whatever couldn't retreat fast enough... I had 9 million men in the field by the summer of 42, but even then, the only thing that eventually stopped him was Corps formation in 43.)

Second, In the blizzard, Wheat retreated everything worth attacking back to safe areas anyway... but that's irrelevent without having effective Russian units to attack with.

Third, I never had the MP to even approach most of the German units. The morale system and "flipping hexes" seems to prevent it. I tried to do so on several occasions, but didn't have to MP to do it. (Yeah, I managed a few counter-attacks, but the oportunities were less than rare. Wheat doesn't leave his troops open to attack.)

Fourth, the rails were destroyed and there were no rail construction units (and no AP to build rail construction units... you don't have enough troops to hold the line, much less spend AP on RR repair in 41).

Fifth, couldn't afford the losses incurred in attacks, even if I had won attacks.

Sixth, Needed to dig multiple entrenchment lines (which were still insufficient in 42... any fewer entrenchments would have been fatal, anyway).

Seventh, you can only gain morale if you win the battles... with insufficient CV, and morale levels at 35 to 40, Russians can't win battles against German units at morale levels of 80 plus. All the forum claims of Russian "wins" consisting of legitimately obtained strings of "20 German retreats per turn in 1941" are pure BS. The game combat mechanics won't do it without "exploit farming" (yeah, I know, nobody does that... [8|]).

Attack during the 41 blizzard ? Russian suicide, especially when using reduced blizzard like we did.

Now, if I was less scrupulous... well...

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

It pains me to read this thread. GamesaurusRex, your main problem was that you didn't attack during blizzard. If you don't attack during blizzard your troops will not gain morale and your opponent doesn't lose morale. Then the whole game spirals out of control. It's as simple as that. Morvael's changes have nothing to do with it. Even the best German player can't prevent you to attack during the blizzard. But in this game you chose to dig in during blizzard and that was a mistake. You should start a new game and go for an all out attack during blizzard and you will be rewarded with many guard units.

+1...not to be a jerk but so many of these threads are based off of "I have played this game once against this really good guy...and thus draw sweeping conclusions about many aspects of the game that I really don't have any grounds to be talking about." Sorry but true.

[>:] (Farm much ?)