Excel Empire - F Krieg vs Great Went - DBB-C 28

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Spidery
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by Spidery »

A6M5 gets my vote. A nice durability increase.

The diminishing returns is more a matter of when researching a model without benefit of a line of models (e.g., Ki-83), and I would put the point at more like 4 or 5 factories. The diminishing returns is because the time to repair is fixed so the reduction in time is capped. With an already mended R&D factory in a line there is no problem with putting all the factories you can on it, as long as you manage the last month to avoid wasted effort (such as advancing it on the 29th of the month).
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

If I recall, from reading a different R&D thread, michaelm posted that you could get either 1, 2 or 3 R&D points per turn. The way the random numbers were written, it was something like with 1x30 factory you will always get 1 point per turn. With 2x30 factories, there is chance you will get a 2nd point. But then after that you have to have something like 10x30 factories to have just a chance to get the 3rd point per turn. That being said, each additional x30 factory gives you a better chance to get the 2nd point, but it is not assured. In other words, 2x30 factories do not research twice as fast as 1x30.

I'll see if I can find that thread again.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Here's the thread -

tm.asp?m=2825013&mpage=1&key=

Upon rereading, I think maybe I was wrong. Multiple size 30 factories should keep speeding things up in a linear fashion. I'm going to do a little tracking of the R&D amounts for my planes over the next couple turns just to make sure.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Okay, just checked and Spidery is right. Every 30(0) factory is definitely adding a point to R&D.

Tomorrow I'll do some math to see exactly how I want to line up these factories now that I have 4-6 factories fully repaired in some of the lines.

Time for another spreadsheet. :)
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Okay! Here it is - the R&D matix for the A6M series given five available 30(0) factories and a current game date of May 2, 1942. What would you do?

[center]Image[/center]

I'm thinking now maybe I should skip the A6M5 altogether and go straight for the A6M5c. Hellcats are available in April 43, and the first Essex arrives in late May, the 2nd one in July. If I can get the A6M5c in May, then I should have at least 2-3 of my CV's outfitted with A6M5c's by the time I would encounter a pair of Essexs.

This one is an easier analysis since all the engines are available. As soon as I start to get more finished R&D factories, like for the Oscars and Tonys I'll do this again, but some of those may be more complex due to engines that also have to be accelerated to take advantage of the plane.
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offenseman
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by offenseman »

It is hard for me to spend much on RnD for that series since none of them are worth much once the Hellcat is widely in service and numerical superiority is at least equal for the Allies. I suppose I am rather fatalistic about CV and IJN fighter survivability after the A6M5 arrives (Hellcat arrival around that time). Later models seem to have a minor improvement in exchange for a decline in the only thing the Zero really has going for it, Range and Maneuverability. Over the A6M5, the B model gains one firepower point in exchange for less speed and maneuverability. The C model loses even more speed and maneuverability and a big decrease in range in order to gain armor and 4 firepower points. Of course opinions will vary but a case can be made to stop that series with A6M5 until very late war when the A7M2 arrives.

Indeed given the common role of the IJN CVs in late 43 and after, a good argument could probably be made to mix the A6M5 series with the A6M3a on board to use as long range escorts for the nicely ranged TBs Japan can employ by then. I have a pet theory (no testing) that high maneuverability rating helps escorts survive and bombers get through.
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castor troy
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Okay! Here it is - the R&D matix for the A6M series given five available 30(0) factories and a current game date of May 2, 1942. What would you do?

[center]Image[/center]

I'm thinking now maybe I should skip the A6M5 altogether and go straight for the A6M5c. Hellcats are available in April 43, and the first Essex arrives in late May, the 2nd one in July. If I can get the A6M5c in May, then I should have at least 2-3 of my CV's outfitted with A6M5c's by the time I would encounter a pair of Essexs.

This one is an easier analysis since all the engines are available. As soon as I start to get more finished R&D factories, like for the Oscars and Tonys I'll do this again, but some of those may be more complex due to engines that also have to be accelerated to take advantage of the plane.


the question is why would you really want the A6m5c? Only because of the higher gun value? I don't know if you are playing a mod or stock and I am not sure Babes got the same aircraft stats for the Zeke as stock,
but in Babes the A6m5c is only superior in gun value and it got armor. But the drawback is that it is nearly as slow as the A6M2. And carrier based aircraft usually fight carrier based aircraft, 1E fighters and
1E bombers that is. A gun value 12 against these works just fine and then I would preferre the A6m5 that isn't 40mph slower than the Hellcat but only 20. And when it comes down to armor on carrier based fighters
I don't give as much about it as for land based aircraft as carrier based aircraft are mostly one shot weapons as soon as they meet opposition. Then the fighter either get's through Cap and returns or is shot down
by the Cap anyway, no matter if armor or not.

The only Zero model I'd take would be the A6m8 but that is some time in 45 IIRC and by then you should go for the Sam.

edit: silly me, just saw you are playing a Babes campaign. Now my question, do you use the new aircraft stats or are you still using the released stats that are equal with stock? With the new stats, going for the
Tony would be a horrible choice, all should be focused on the Tojo in my oppinion. Then Frank and later on (if you really reach that stage) there are these Ki-83, Ki-94... monsters (if I have the models right, I'm
better using the codenames as I usually screw up the numbers). IJN would be the George all the way through from 43 on for land based fighter units and the Sam for the carriers but I think you need 8x30 factories
and the engine bonus to get the Sam at a time you can still use it to good effect so realistically spoken, you will be stuck with the Zero and then I will just use the A6m5 all the way through until either the
A6m8 or the Sam. And if I really reach that timeframe it will be 100% the Sam.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Thanks for the input guys.

I suppose I'm so used to seeing my bullets bounce off the Allied planes that the step up in gun power seems like it would be more useful. I was also biased by real life - from what I've read most regard the A6M5c as the best of the series.

If speed and maneuver is more important, and if using the A6M3a is sufficient, then that would seem to say I should just go for the A6M8 straight away. It has 29 maneuver compared to the A6M5c's 24, and I believe decent speed to boot.

Since I could get the A6M8 late in 43, I'd just have to be careful to not lose my carriers in 43. I'd still have some A6M5's in the spring to get through the summer.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Hi Castor - just saw your edit. I do have have some R&D already on Tony none of it is repaired fully yet. I think the last Tony in the line uses a Mitsubishi engine and isn't too bad looking but I haven't looked much since the stats were updated. I do recall the Mitsubishi engine version had a good service rating as well.

Anyway, the Tojo is my planned main Army fights until those late war models are available. I currently have 5x30(0) cranking away on the Tojo-C.

And to answer your questions - yes, I am using the new aircraft states that were released at the end of last year. Maybe I should post the sheet with the stats of the A6M line for those who aren't using this mod. I'll do that when I get home from work today.

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obvert
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by obvert »

Based on experience I like the A6M5c quite a lot. It's tough to bring down and gets the bombers through, but is tough as CAP also.

The A6M5 is all you really need though, as it's better durability and decent all around stats and range make it a good stop-gap until the Sam. My advice would be to get the Sam more quickly. If you can get that plane by 10-12/44 then forget about eh A6M8. If you can't, then go for that one and use the other types as they become available.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

The problem with the Sam is that it is not on any early upgrade path. I do have a factory repairing for Sam, but it may be another year until it is fixed.

If I can get the Sam in 44 then I'll be happy. In the meantime, given that you have used both, obvert, would you rather have the A6M5 in Oct 42, the A6M5c in May 43, or the A6M8 in Sep 43?
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 28th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Here's the stats on the A6M line. Sam is of course better, but as I mentioned above, it isn't a sure thing that I can get it before 1944.

I'll get to Army fighters another day.





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FeurerKrieg
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April 29th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

April 29th, 1942

India/Burma
Near Colombo we get a sub hit from our newly arrived ASW Sallys.

Farther out to sea, northwest of Addu atoll, Bettys hit and sink the AMC Pansy. Certainly a dangerous area to be sailing around.

[center]Image
Bettys hit from fairly long range[/center]

DEI
Memboro is occupied and with that the Flores Chain is fully secure.

Philippines
The Allies occupy the base of Surigao on Mindanao. This had flipped to Japan a while back. We didn't have anything there, so not big loss on this flip back.

Pacific
The level 4 airfield is put to use asap by the USAAF as six B-17Es attack our amphib force at Nadi. Thankfully they all miss, and our Zeros are able to bring two of them down.

On the ground, our troops attack Nadi and easily capture the base from the Nandi Base Force. We also destroy six P-40E Warhawks on the ground. Two of our divisions pursue, so they will arrive at Suva tomorrow and try an attack to see what we are up against.

No more SBD attacks in that area, and our troops ships probably only need one more day to finish unloading. Most of our transports and surface ships will be out of range by tomorrow, but we will continue to CAP the few that remain. Meanwhile, our carriers will maintain a slow pace towards Pago Pago to see if we can get some easy targets there. We did bring down three more Catalinas at Nadi and over our carriers today.

China
The Chinese do not attack at Shaoyang today, so we get another day of reprieve.
East of Nanning one Chinese Corp arrives which I doubt is enough to dislodge our tanks. If he pulls another unit from Nanning, I think it will be weak enough that we could take it in a river crossing from the west, thus trapping his two units between our tanks in the woods, and infantry at Nanning.

Submarines
At Pago Pago, after having several subs hanging around near the base, I decide to send one of our medium range subs into the shallow water and see what we can get. I-168 is the drawer of the short straw, and makes the trip count!

I-168 first attacks the xAK Cardross on the surface, putting 3 torpedoes into the ship, sinking it. But I-168 wasn't done yet, as it then, while still on the surface, attacked xAK Colac hitting with the deck gun once and three more torpedoes also sinking that ship. John said via email that those ships had an escort so I-168's feat is even more impressive. Colac did hit I-168 with its deck gun, so I-168 will leave the shallows and another medium range sub will move in to see if they can do as well as I-168 did.

[center]Image
Nice double attack by I-168[/center]

Other
Both Kaifeng and Wenchow hit airfield size 4 and both will stop there.

Also, 3rd Ku S-1/C attains carrier trained status on Taiyo.


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LargeSlowTarget
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RE: April 29th, 1942

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Nice AAR! Well structured, restraint but ample screenies and battle reports, interesting strategy, very instructive almost scientific approach - subscribed!
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: April 29th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

It's an honor to have you LST. Aren't you a plank holder?

To LST and other subscribers - sorry for the lack of updates this week. John and I have been hammering out turns before I go on vacation for about 10 days. When I get back I'll get back to my updates. Things are cruising along, and I'll definitely need to start talking through some more R&D issues since I am getting some more factories that are finished repairing.

Although I am at work and therefore can't post the Tony stats, I am currently thinking that the 4 R&D factories I have on the Tony line will be moved up to the first Tony -100 model that uses the Mitsubishi engine and thus has a service level of 1. The stats seem to look good compared to other 1943 fighters. Anyone disagree with the idea of bringing the Tony 100 forward to 1943?
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FeurerKrieg
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April 30th, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

April 30th, 1942

India/Burma
We manage to get three hits on enemy subs near Colombo, hopefully that will send some home.

DEI
Near Sumatra, the dot island of Enggano is occupied.

Farther south, we capture Tockangbesi-eilanden.

Pacific
At Nadi, S-44 attacks one of our DMS ships at two different times, missing on both tries.

The air attacks continue, as 14 P-40E's sweep Nadi. We don't lose any planes an take down one P-40E. Next 5 SBD's escorted by 14 P-39D's attack. We take down a couple of the bombers, but one manages to hit one of our xAP ships, causing about 99 casualties.

China
We continue to keep the air attacks going on Shaoyang. It seems to help as the Chinese attack there today and only get 1:3 odds despite their 2:1 superior numbers. No fort reduction so I'm feeling good here for the moment.

To see if we were strong enough to attack the reduced stack east of Ichang we attack there. But the attack does badly with only 1:7 results and we take nearly 5,000 casualties to only 300 Chinese. Yuck! Our troops will go ahead and retreat back to the heavier forts and clear terrain farther east.

Submarines
I-169 moves in on Pago Pago and also has some success. First, I-169 finds AVP Swan and hits the ship with a torpedo, apparently sinking the ship. Later, after avoiding and ASW attack from AVD Ballard, the captain finds AG Antares and hits with a torpedo. After coming back to check on AG Antares, the sub finds the ship still afloat and puts another torpedo into the AG for good measure, sinking the ship.

Nearby, I-7 spots some PT boats and thankfully doesn't waste a torpedo on one.

Other
3rd Ku S-1/B attains carrier trained status on Unyo

Paramushiro Jima's airfield is finished up as it hits size 4 today.
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April 1942 Summary

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Sorry for the lull. John has been sending me turns daily so it hasn't left me as much time to do posts here. We was out of town this weekend though, so here is the April summary and hopefully I'll get some more updates soon. Game time now is May 16.

April 1942
Another month comes to an end, and it was another lively one.

The rate of base captures continues to slow, largely due to the nearling of our stated expansion goals. The big captures of the month include Colombo and Trincomalee, freeing up several division to head over to Burma and India. Also important was the capture of Noumea and Suva. This month we capture 50 bases, compared to 54 last month.

Lots of naval battles on both sides of the map. Shokaku lost her battle with the sea when an Allied sub put one hole too many in her side. As we neared the capture of Ceylon, our combination of submarines, land based air and our own surface forces were able to sink several British warships. We did lose CL Sendai and CA Mogami in the process however. In the Pacific, our carriers successfully enaged and sank the three remaining large US carriers Yorktown, Enterprise and Lexington. We did lose the light carrier Zuiho in the process, but that battle has ensured us some operational freedom in the Pacific for several more months. This should allow us to take Pago Pago and Canton Island before settling in for the defense.

Nearly all the dot bases in the DEI have been secured and several bases now have aviation support in place to help provide LBA LRCAP coverage of our ships when the time comes to hit northern Australia.

China has been slowly improving, although it is still a close run thing. The incursion behind Changsha seems to have some degree of permanance now and soon we will have lots of artillery support as the heavy artillery from Bataan moves into frontline positions.

The initial assault on Burma has gone well and we will continue to slowly take the area on the cheap while the bulk of our forces move towards Calcutta.

Some numbers for April -
Bases captured: 50
VP Ratio Apr 1: 2.191:1 (Japan)
VP Ratio May 1: 2.729:1 (Japan)
Air losses: 326 Japan, 438 Allies
Ships lost - Allies: 39 Ships, 777 Points
Ships lost - Japan: 30 Ships, 771 Points

Capital Ships lost (entire war):
Allies
CV Enterprise
CV Indomitable
CV Lexington
CV Saratoga
CV Yorktown
BB Prince of Wales
BB Resolution
BB Ramillies
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BC Repulse
CA Australia
CA Canberra
CA Chester
CA Chicago
CA Cornwall
CA Dorsetshire
CA Exeter
CA Indianapolis
CA Northampton
CA Pensacola
CA San Francisco
CL Achilles
CL Adelaide
CL Caledon
CL Ceres
CL Colombo
CL Danae
CL De Ruyter
CL Dragon
CL Enterprise
CL Hobart
CL Java
CL Leander
CL Marblehead
CL Mauritius
CL Perth

Japan
CV Shokaku
CVL Zuiho
CA Mogami
CL Sendai
CL Kashii
CL Kashima

No subs were lost in April. I-165 is still in the lead, but I-4 is trying to catch up with 6 ships on her kill board.

[center]Image[/center]


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FeurerKrieg
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May 1st, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

May 1st, 1942

India/Burma
Some Blenheims night strike Colombo to no effect.

The ship AP Leonard Wood strikes one of our mines at Diego Garcia.

Northeast of Rangoon, the enemy Railway RAF Battalion, presumably expecting our paratroopers to be pushovers, attacks but only gets 1:7 odds against our 2nd Raiding Regiment.

Southeast of Chittagong, the 1st Somerset LI Battalion and 36th Indian Battalion are now present against our 56th/B Division. Our boys try a deliberate attack but only get 1:2 odds. The defenders are showing fatigue and experience negatives, but even with that our 56th/B will have to wait for reinforcements.

DEI
The dot base of Molu is occupied today.

Zuikaku Vals on shore duty at Sabang get a hit on an enemy submarine.

Pacific
ASW planes at Port Moresby get two hits on enemy subs.

Northeast of Pago Pago, I-6 spots enemy ships fleeing our daunting submarine attacks of the past couple days. I-6 takes a shot at AR Vestal, but misses. Also spotted are an AVD, AMc, AE and AG. Looks like Pago Pago was well equipped to help restock the US Navy. Hopefully the ground troops aren't as well stocked.

We launch a deliberate attack at Suva and get 1:3 odds against level 3 forts. We manage to drop the forts to 2, so that is a good sign. However, our disruption is up a bit. I'll wait until the 28th Division arrives before attacking again. That should be in three days. I don't want to wear down the 8th and 21st too much since I'll need them for Pago Pago and/or Austrialia. With the amphib bonus gone, I'm sure the difficulty level will go up dramatically.

[center]Image
View of the Fiji area[/center]

China
Bombing continues at Shaoyang to good effect. Clear terrain sure makes a difference. Today our 62 Sallys inflict 505 casualties. The Chinese again attack and get 1:6 results, although casualties are about even. The attackers are showing a disruption negative modifier so hopefully the main part of the threat has passed.

At Ichang proper, the enemy shock attacks and get 113:1 odds against our lone brigade. Our troops retreat to the northeast and will march to safety to rest and recover.

The Chinese try to capitalize on our dismal attack in the woods east of Ichang yesterday. The terrain helps us enough though, and the result is 1:2. Our troops will use the likely pause in attacking to move to places more secure to the southeast.

Other
Shikuka goes up a notch to port size 5, so in the near future I will reconfigure my CS Convoys running from Niigata to Shikuka.

3rd Ku S-1/A attains carrier trained status on Kaga, which is always good.

The first of the month sees several ships go into refit.
DD Kuroshio beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Oyashio beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Natsushio beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Tokitsukaze beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Hamakaze beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Arashi beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
DD Tanikaze beginning refit in shipyard at Singapore
E Kunashiri beginning refit at Georgetown
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FeurerKrieg
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May 2nd, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

May 2nd, 1942

India/Burma
Another night attack at Colombo produces nothing more than a damaged Blenheim.

To slow down the movement of the enemy LCU at Taung Gyi, we attack with Anns. However, the Allies are ready with some CAP. 13 Buffaloes and 5 H81-A3s engage our escort of 22 Oscar B models. We lose two Oscars, but a H81 goes down as well. The Ann's get through without losses.

DEI
Near Denpasar, SS S-39 attacks one of our xAK's and has not just one working torpedo, but two hit for a change. Our ship sinks, thankfully empty.

Philippines
Having landed on Roxas yesterday, our troops occupy the base today.

Pacific
We get two more ASW hits from the Sallys at Port Moresby.

Hoping for more targets at Pago Pago, our carrier airplanes move into position for a long range attack. Expecting only soft targets, we leave the torpedoes on the carriers and fly all bombs. 58 Zero escorts plow through the 9 P-39D's on CAP, shooting down 7 of them. We find two xAP, one xAK and one AM. The Vals with their long range 60kg bombs get a handful of hits, including two on the xAP Mariposa. xAK Agwimonte and the AM Vireo both get some of the bigger 250kg bombs from the Kates and both will likely sink. xAP Mariposa will likely survive having been hit with only two small bombs.

[center]Image
Naval attack at Pago Pago[/center]

China
More air attacks on Shaoyang continue to knock out Chinese troops. The cavalry gets closer to relieving Shaoyang as the area southwest of Changsha is cleared out with a solid attack that gets 16:1 odds and bounces two Chinese corps back into Changsha with about 4,000 men less than they started. These troops will now move across the river to try and take Siangtang - again - and hopefully for good this time.

[center]Image
Shaoyang/Changsha area[/center]

To the west, we have some success as well, as the rested 104th Division, Yokosuka 4th SNLF and 23r Army HQ return to Nanning in a shock attack across the river. Since the our armor in the woods east of Nanning had drawn away some of the infantry, the attack finds only one third of a Chinese Corp in place. Our troops easily win this fight with a 11:1 result. The unit is forced to retreat northeast since our tanks lie to the east blocking the path to Liuchow. Simultaneously, the Chinese attack our tanks in the wood and although they get 1:1 odds, that isn't enough to clear the hex. We lose 3 tanks, with 31 disabled, but take out 1300 Chinese troops. The 104th and 23rd HQ will move east to provide support to the armor if it can hold for a couple more days.

[center]Image
Nanning area[/center]

Submarines
At Pago Pago, I-174 finds AG Kaula and proceeds to hit with a torpedo and four rounds of deck gun fire. The ship is reported sunk.

Not content with one kill, the I-174 also finds xAP Poelau Laut and puts one torpedo into that large target as well. No report on sinking, and it looks like a large ship, so it may make it somewhere.

Other
Pilot Hiramoto H. is reported as having been found.
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FeurerKrieg
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May 3rd, 1942

Post by FeurerKrieg »

May 3rd, 1942

India/Burma
We sweep Mandalay today and our Oscar B models take out a H81 and a Buffalo, while losing one of their own.

DEI
8 Hudsons from Darwin attack the couple xAKLs we have unloading a IJNAF support unit at Damar. No hits are scored.

Philippines
We unload troops at San Jose, and take a lot more casualties than usual. Clearly we are going to miss the amphib bonus. From here on, we'll have to be very careful about ampib attacks.

Pacific
East of New Caledonia the dot base of Anatom is occupied.

We score 11 Val hits on PT boats at Pago Pago during air search phases, presumably most of those hits will sink their targets.

Our SNLF Coy traveling by barges captures Torres Islands today.

China
Hong Kong hits port size 9 today. Since CV Soryu is there, once the shipyards have taken care of the major float damage, the size 9 port should take the system damage down pretty fast in pier side mode.

We continue bombing Shaoyang with good results. About 600 enemy casualties today.

The Chinese again attack our tanks east of Nanning and again get 1:1 results. Our infantry support should arrive tomorrow, so I believe the threat here is done.

Other
An old sinking report shows up today, xAKL Lyemun is reported to have been sunk near Utan Melintang on Dec 18, 1941
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