1:1 = 1:2

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Oshawott
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1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

Should this rule go or are players just making basic mistakes? The Axis crosses the Dnepr at Kiev on T5. Then a stack with 28 CV gets pushed back. Russian CV was equal. Three bombings. No reserve activation. In my opinion any attack would fail if for example a motorized division is split up and kept in reserve. The margin of this counterattack is razor thin.



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timmyab
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by timmyab »

Yes the rule should go, but the main problem is Soviet attack CV inflation which on average is about x 2.5. In fact this battle is closer than I would have expected. Given good C&C, 15 to 20 CV should be more than adequate to knock back that panzer stack before April 42.
Quadruple Soviet CVs to get an idea of their offensive potential before April 42 and double them after that.
Reserves will help a bit in some situations but not here I wouldn't think. Your best defense is to convert as many hexes around the stack as you can. Also look to cross where you can protect one side of the stack with a river. You don't even need to be right next to the river sometimes for it to help you.
gradenko2k
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by gradenko2k »

It should go, but only because a Soviet player determined to make a counter-attack will usually be able to pull it off without the rule anyway.
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Tarhunnas
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Tarhunnas »

I am not sure it should go, at least not completely. There needs to be something to encourage Soviet offensive behaviour in 1941. Personally, I would prefer to change it so there was a 50% chance of the rule kicking in. That woul make the Soviets agressive in the hope of getting the benefit, while reducing any possible distortions.
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Oshawott
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

Personally, I would prefer to change it so there was a 50% chance of the rule kicking in.

I like this suggestion!
Oshawott
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

It should go, but only because a Soviet player determined to make a counter-attack will usually be able to pull it off without the rule anyway.

This is not the case. I attacked the hex from three sides with everything I had available including good leader, bombing, reassignment of division. Without the rule this attack would have failed and there is nothing I could have done about it.

1:1 = 1:2 is a huge advantage for the Russians. I would not have attacked this hex without this rule.
Oshawott
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

Reserves will help a bit in some situations but not here I wouldn't think. Your best defense is to convert as many hexes around the stack as you can. Also look to cross where you can protect one side of the stack with a river. You don't even need to be right next to the river sometimes for it to help you.

These are very good suggestions. I guess it is better to delay crossing the Dnepr by 1 turn and then cross in full force with infantry.
jwolf
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
Three bombings.

Caution: Amateur's opinion ahead.

Just wondering if the bombings are really the problem, not the CV adjustment the Russians get. Seems to me the Soviet air force was totally incapable of any such actions in July 1941. But in game the Soviet air force is in much better shape than historical throughout 41 and 42. They can't stop the Luftwaffe, but on the other hand the Luftwaffe can't really stop them either. That is badly wrong IMHO.
Oshawott
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

Seems to me the Soviet air force was totally incapable of any such actions in July 1941.

You should read diaries of German soldiers on the east front. They had a different opinion regarding Russian air force and artillery in July. Especially in the South. My opponent has destroyed much of my air force on T1 but some tactical bombers are available. They are not decisive. More like icing on cake.
swkuh
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by swkuh »

Play experience trumps rule book reading every time for me. Many posts have indicated (with good reason) non-linear effects that need to be seen to be understood, morale an example. So, 1:1::2:1 is another example of non-linearity. If you want to eliminate this rule, with what would you replace it? These rules are not implemented in isolation or in limited time frames and their effects would need to be understood.

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GamesaurusRex
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by GamesaurusRex »

Oh, yes... by all means... nerf the Russians more by removing the 1:1=2:1 rule in the 41 time period so that the Russian side has even less means of defending.
We all know if the German side can't capture Leningrad/Moskow/Stalingrad in 14 turns the game is imbalanced... right? [8|]
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"Real Life" is a game... THIS is war !
timmyab
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by timmyab »

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
I guess it is better to delay crossing the Dnepr by 1 turn and then cross in full force with infantry.
I would get across as quickly as possible, momentum is crucial. It's worth taking the risk of losing a few tanks in order to avoid getting held up for two or three turns at the Dnieper. Getting across a major river quickly is the WITE equivalent of capturing a bridge intact and can save you weeks of hard slog.
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821Bobo
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by 821Bobo »

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I would get across as quickly as possible, momentum is crucial. It's worth taking the risk of losing a few tanks in order to avoid getting held up for two or three turns at the Dnieper. Getting across a major river quickly is the WITE equivalent of capturing a bridge intact and can save you weeks of hard slog.

+1

I always try to cross Dneper on turn 2 around Mogilev. But you have to plan it on turn 1 + have to be lucky and also cooperation from Soviet player is needed[:D].
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Oshawott
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by Oshawott »

Quadruple Soviet CVs to get an idea of their offensive potential before April 42 and double them after that.

This information was useful and caused me to attack the same stack of units again. This is almost the identical combat as before. This time no 1:1 = 1:2 rule was necessary.

I believe my opponent did an HQ Buildup so next turn will be painful. But eliminating the bridgehead was too tempting.



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randallw
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by randallw »

Historically the Germans clobbered quite a few Soviet planes in the first few weeks, like three or four thousand?.....but the Russians had something like 10-12K to being with.

If those Germans were way out ahead then getting them air defense from shorter range fighters like the BF-109 may have been complicated, unless the Axis side moved some of those airfield caravans forward a good bit.
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heliodorus04
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by heliodorus04 »

The air war in war in the east has no relationship to real aircraft performance of the period. It's also a meaningless part of the game for the most part (play without aircraft ground support on for one game and tell me if you notice a difference).

The combat engine is almost as bad, as its algorithm dictates that everything involved in land combat rush as fast as possible to short range, and once in short range, fire. As a result, mortars out-perform heavy artillery, submachineguns outperform heavy machine guns, and T70s can take out Nashorns. This is why the 1:1=2:1 rule for the Soviets.

If you hadn't had that rule, and your HQ buildup German had crossed the river in tact, the game would be over for you already. Even giving up the Dnepr before turn 9 is bad news for the Soviet.
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STEF78
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RE: 1:1 = 1:2

Post by STEF78 »

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
It should go, but only because a Soviet player determined to make a counter-attack will usually be able to pull it off without the rule anyway.

This is not the case. I attacked the hex from three sides with everything I had available including good leader, bombing, reassignment of division. Without the rule this attack would have failed and there is nothing I could have done about it.

1:1 = 1:2 is a huge advantage for the Russians. I would not have attacked this hex without this rule.
1941 is hell for the russians. Logistic rules are too permissive for the germans (fuel supply by air???)

1vc1=2vs1 is a necessary compensation.

And now "mild blizzard" allows a more easy 1942 german victory.
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