Infantry Squad Upgrades

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Bullwinkle58
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Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

For the first time I'm paying a lot of attention to the US Army TOE upgrade mechanisms. I read what little the manual says, then searched and found some very useful old posts by Andy Mac. In one he says that when squads are upgraded from one "year type" to another, such as US Army 1941 Infantry to 1942 Infantry beginning in July 1942, the retrograde 1941 squads are returned to the pool as 1942 squads (or the next type in the upgrade cycle for other types/nationalities.) This elegantly solves the issue that would exist if they were either poofed away, or came back to pool as useless 1941 squads. But since the monthly number of 1942 squads generated is only 80 squads, and there are several full pre-war divisions of 273 squads each plus many, many independent regiments as well as base forces using US Army infantry I was wondering if anyone had ever come up with an optimal path.

IOW, if you wait to generate one division's worth at 80/month you're a good way toward where the 1943s come out. So is it better to generate "free" 1942 squads by using the first 1-80 squads to "seed corn" some base forces and shove those back into the pools as 1942 squads? And thus build to where a regiment can be swapped, sending circa 90 squads and thus a second regiment, and thus two more regiments, and thus a division, and then a second "free" division? If that makes sense.

How do other Allied players do this?
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rook749
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

For the first time I'm paying a lot of attention to the US Army TOE upgrade mechanisms. I read what little the manual says, then searched and found some very useful old posts by Andy Mac. In one he says that when squads are upgraded from one "year type" to another, such as US Army 1941 Infantry to 1942 Infantry beginning in July 1942, the retrograde 1941 squads are returned to the pool as 1942 squads (or the next type in the upgrade cycle for other types/nationalities.) This elegantly solves the issue that would exist if they were either poofed away, or came back to pool as useless 1941 squads. But since the monthly number of 1942 squads generated is only 80 squads, and there are several full pre-war divisions of 273 squads each plus many, many independent regiments as well as base forces using US Army infantry I was wondering if anyone had ever come up with an optimal path.

IOW, if you wait to generate one division's worth at 80/month you're a good way toward where the 1943s come out. So is it better to generate "free" 1942 squads by using the first 1-80 squads to "seed corn" some base forces and shove those back into the pools as 1942 squads? And thus build to where a regiment can be swapped, sending circa 90 squads and thus a second regiment, and thus two more regiments, and thus a division, and then a second "free" division? If that makes sense.

How do other Allied players do this?

There are a couple of different ways to do this. Some of which game the system more than others. You have to treat different counties differently as some of the upgrades paths are more complicated.

US/USMC/BRT/FF/NZ/CA
The best non-gamey method I have found is to stockpile the 1942 squads until you have enough of them to upgrade 1/3 of a division + 10 squads. At this point I break down all of my divisions into 1/3 components and upgrade them all. For the British/Indian I will sometime upgrade and disband (to come back in 180 days) the independent Infantry Battalions to speed this process along. Upgrading 36 Squads and then disbanding the Battalion will get you to 72 squads very quickly and then you are 2/3 of the way to where you need to be.

AUS
The Australian ones are more complicated. At the start of the war I pick one division that is understrength and have this upgrade to the CMF Inf Section this will then be set to not upgrade and take all of the CMF Inf Squads till Augusts for 1942. All of the others are set to take upgrades and replacements with the AMF INF 42 squads set to stockpile until I have enough to upgrade a division that is broken down into 1/3 components + 10 Squads. Some people will upgrade and disband (permanently) the battalions that can reform into brigades/divisions. This allows you to get the squads into the pools faster and buy out the divisions when you recombine them for less PPs (at a cost of time/supplies) – I think that is gaming the system but some might just view it as working the system.....

Doe this help?
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rook749
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by rook749 »

Now if you want the fastest method to convert 1941 US Squads to 1942 types you need to do the following.

1) Select a US Division that is not permanently restricted and move it to San Fransisco.
2) Set to rest mode, take replacements on, no upgrades and divide the unit into 1/3 Components.
3) Set the B and C Components to Upgrade.
4) Disband the B and C Components after the upgrade.
4) Reform the Division
5) Divide the Division in 1/3 Components
6) Let it drain the pool of the 1941 Squads.
7) Repeat steps 1 - 6 as needed until the 1941 pool is empty.
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witpqs
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by witpqs »

Apologies if one of you mentioned it and I missed it... you also have to manage replacements in the event that you have some units not fully staffed. Otherwise you can find that as soon as that squad pool built up enough to upgrade the first under-strength unit - it did so - and then over the next three or four turns emptied half the pool bringing that unit up to strength!
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

That helps a lot. I had not thought about doing them in 1/3s. I'm mostly concerned with the US Army now. The Marines are fat on squads (no fighting yet) and their upgrades happen at different times than the Army. The Aussies, Kiwis, and Indians are all over the place on usage, not near HQs, fighting in desperate battles, etc. I've gotten some of the Aussie armor done, but the infantry is all over the map.

Thanks for the input. I'll take another look at what I can break up.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Apologies if one of you mentioned it and I missed it... you also have to manage replacements in the event that you have some units not fully staffed. Otherwise you can find that as soon as that squad pool built up enough to upgrade the first under-strength unit - it did so - and then over the next three or four turns emptied half the pool bringing that unit up to strength!

I got replacements turned off for everybody almost in time. One base force grabbed I think it was nine squads first.

I look at the 80 as new graduates of Basic. They have 1942 small arms and anti-tank weapons. Morale and experience are handled elsewhere. For guys at Schofield since 1940 who are still in that division in the summer of 1942 the men don't change. Same guys as yesterday, but they're carrying old small arms. They shouldn't have to access the 80/month variable to get small arms. So the devs' solution to allow upgrading on the retrograde makes sense to me and isn't a cheat or "gamey." They're just getting up-weaponed in place. The penalty, if there is one, is the threshold variables to be met to issue them new anti-soft and anti-armor gear. The HQ, supply, at Rest, etc. to get the TOE upgraded in the first place.

I had never paid much attention to this playing the AI. Just got the unit near a fat base with good HQ, stuck it on Rest/Upgrade, and looked back in a couple of months. Can't do that in a tight PBEM game.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: rook749

Now if you want the fastest method to convert 1941 US Squads to 1942 types you need to do the following.

1) Select a US Division that is not permanently restricted and move it to San Fransisco.
2) Set to rest mode, take replacements on, no upgrades and divide the unit into 1/3 Components.
3) Set the B and C Components to Upgrade.
4) Disband the B and C Components after the upgrade.
4) Reform the Division
5) Divide the Division in 1/3 Components
6) Let it drain the pool of the 1941 Squads.
7) Repeat steps 1 - 6 as needed until the 1941 pool is empty.

Hmm.

Might be fast, but I do not have a whole division to play with like this. Every one has a job holding together a crumbled line waiting for the draftees of mid-1942 to learn to march.

I think I can do the 1/3 thing on the line in all but maybe one case, in one game.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Lokasenna »

I think you're onto something here. I think you want to upgrade the smaller portions sooner, as it will nearly double your rate of production. The dividing a division thing and disbanding parts C/B is also a good idea.
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Feltan
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Feltan »

Plan B.

Don't worry about it too much.

IRL units didn't automatically snap to the latest TOE on cue. It takes time to cascade though the force; it is messy and not particularly efficient or well organized.

Fight with what you have, and let the rear echelon types worry about upgrades.

Regards,
Feltan
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Plan B.

Don't worry about it too much.

IRL units didn't automatically snap to the latest TOE on cue. It takes time to cascade though the force; it is messy and not particularly efficient or well organized.

Fight with what you have, and let the rear echelon types worry about upgrades.

Regards,
Feltan

Well, to be clear on the issue, this isn't about snapping to the latest TOE. To do that often requires making the LCU into a "rear echelon type" for at least a day. In places like Oz this can mean riding rails for ten days or two weeks to get to someplace with the requisite factors to get the TOE re-aligned. Sometimes the tactical situation allows that, sometimes the LCU has to stay forward and muddle through.

But once the TOE--on paper--is upgraded the issue becomes how to scrape up the actual proper devices, and that's what this thread is about. With multiple 273-squad US Army divisions on the map in July 1942, and an 80-squad-per-month production rate into the pools, measures must be taken else those pre-war divisions are going to be fighting in 1943 with 1941 weapons. Looking at the stats, especially the anti-armor stats, one can see why it is massively advantageous for the Allied player to find a way to make his US Army divisions modern.
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Feltan
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Feltan »

Moose,

I can't argue what you are saying on factual grounds -- you are right on those.

Just that I find it tedious and less than enjoyable to try and maximize the automated replacement functionality. Yeah, some of my units will be see '43 with a '41 TO&E. So? If I am kicking ass with '41 weapons why should I sweat it? They'll get upgraded in due course via automated processes anyway.

For the same reasons, I generally hate shoveling snow and consider it one of mankind's least meaningful forms of labor.

It is also probably why I suck at Japanese production.

Regards,
Feltan
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wneumann
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by wneumann »

Plan B.

Don't worry about it too much.

IRL units didn't automatically snap to the latest TOE on cue. It takes time to cascade though the force; it is messy and not particularly efficient or well organized.
+1. Still have one front-line USA division with '41 squads going into 1/44, though this unit is likely first in line to get '44 stuff once there's enough of it. Many of my '43 upgrades did not happen until late 1943. I tend to keep new inventory in the replacement pools until I know exactly where it needs to go - priority goes entirely to front-line units in combat ops or units that are planned to enter combat. Also use what is roughly a "70-30 rule" on allocating items from replacement pools into on-map units - about 70% of the total production of any item goes into upgraded units, the remaining 30% stays behind in the pool to cover replacement of losses in upgraded units. Most of my late 1943 unit upgrades were on the stragglers, these late upgrades to get them drawing 1943 equipment before the 1944 stuff comes out.

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Infantry Squad Upgrades

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Moose,

I can't argue what you are saying on factual grounds -- you are right on those.

Just that I find it tedious and less than enjoyable to try and maximize the automated replacement functionality. Yeah, some of my units will be see '43 with a '41 TO&E. So? If I am kicking ass with '41 weapons why should I sweat it? They'll get upgraded in due course via automated processes anyway.

For the same reasons, I generally hate shoveling snow and consider it one of mankind's least meaningful forms of labor.

It is also probably why I suck at Japanese production.

Regards,
Feltan

It is tedious.

But the bolded part is one of those "Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" comments. I am the kickee, not the kicker, of ass. It's those little things that make all the difference. [:)]

FWIW, we've got a snow blower. My contribution to climate change. Less wear on the back, more face fulls of -20 F. snow. At least I've got my choppers on the old paws. [:'(]
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