Food for thoughts - new Pbem match with PDU-OFF and RnD ON

[MrKane]

Nico, you do not need PDU. If you feel that Japan got to fast best airframes you would go to into R&D full airframe line. Without skipping planes. I have skipped several a/c like all K-61, Ki-44b, Ki-84a,b, A6M3, A6M5b&c ... in our game. You can just reduce investments into R&D. You do not need to break yours right leg to reach your goal.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The real benefit of the RnD OFF is that you can shift industries from Production to RnD and back.
However you still get them damaged if you don't move up on the same upgrade path, so there is no real benefit in terms of supply consumption...
This, however, should help Japan to avoid mistakes in planning cause even if you let an RnD industry become productive, you could always move it back to research without being stuck

Thoughts?

The above is correct.

Realistic R&D Off only allows the ability to switch between R&D and production factories on an as needed basis.

Realistic R&D On or Off has NOTHING to do with the Yes/No switches in the Industry screen that controls whether R&D factories stay R&D factories when their researched plane type becomes available versus switching to production factories.

While this being Off allows a lot more felxibility to Japans production/research efforts, I would never play a game with it Off. Simply because is is so beyond the capabilities of Japan in RL that it seems like more Sic Fi versus something that was historically plausable.

I 'think' this was put into the game to be a help for new people that played Japan for the first time versus something that everyone should use. I played Japan for the first time with this On and did fine. So I do not think it is that big of a deal to play with it On.

I personlly think that playing Japan for the first time in a PBEM is is far more useful and forgiving to play Scen 2 versus 1 than it would be to play Scen 1 with R&D Off.

Of course that is just me [:)] YMMV

[obvert]

All these planes must remain in production, even if better planes on their upgrade paths arrive, because there are groups that do not upgrade to anything else past these models... so if I will want to use those groups, i'll have to maintain a little production of all these models...

Add to these, the better airframes that arrive (Franks, Georges, Jacks etc) and you'll see how few RnD industries will be able to really do any research at all...


However, just for the sake of talking... in 1944 i'll have just 3 Navy Sentais equipped with Georges (three different models!) and 4 with Jacks (2 different models).
The bomber army is even in a worse condition... so many units will be stuck with unarmoured Sallies or early Helens...many more with single engine planes like Sonias, Anns, Marys... Only 3 units will be equippable with Frances (guess what, 2 different models!), while the majority of the IJN bombers will keep their Betties until Vday

At least 8 sentais arriving in late 44 will be stuck with the AWESOME.... KI-79b! A wonderfull Nate equipped with a 250kg bomb, able to make 230 mhp!!! WOAH!

[:D]

Make sure this is what you want to do. I'm fine with the realistic R n D off to just allow flexibility with this mess. Also, if you're still flying Nates and A6M2 you deserve some Ki-94!!!

So, looks like you have it sorted at least. One thing might be to decide which groups stay with the crapiest planes all of the way through and keep those as training groups only. That way you won't have to actually use the Idas, Claudes and Nates. I still had all of those flying in 45, but always training.

So it looks bad, but if you drop 1/3 of the groups in a training bucket the rest might not look so awful. Especially when the CVE will ALL have FM-1 and FM-2. Even Bettys and Vals can sink CVEs and amphibs with a Wildcat CAP. A lot of the USAAF groups will still have the P-40 to late 44.

It all sounds like fun to me!! [;)]

[EHansen]

I think this will be very interesting and informative.

[Mac Linehan]

Grey Joy, Gents -

What an education you are giving me; I have learned a lot from the Big Boys!

This is why I love this forum so much; there are some very sharp gents (and Lady!) to help the rest of us through the R and D murk.

My sincere appreciation to you all...

Mac

P.S. - I think my head hurts <grin>

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

All these planes must remain in production, even if better planes on their upgrade paths arrive, because there are groups that do not upgrade to anything else past these models... so if I will want to use those groups, i'll have to maintain a little production of all these models...

Add to these, the better airframes that arrive (Franks, Georges, Jacks etc) and you'll see how few RnD industries will be able to really do any research at all...


However, just for the sake of talking... in 1944 i'll have just 3 Navy Sentais equipped with Georges (three different models!) and 4 with Jacks (2 different models).
The bomber army is even in a worse condition... so many units will be stuck with unarmoured Sallies or early Helens...many more with single engine planes like Sonias, Anns, Marys... Only 3 units will be equippable with Frances (guess what, 2 different models!), while the majority of the IJN bombers will keep their Betties until Vday

At least 8 sentais arriving in late 44 will be stuck with the AWESOME.... KI-79b! A wonderfull Nate equipped with a 250kg bomb, able to make 230 mhp!!! WOAH!

[:D]

Make sure this is what you want to do. I'm fine with the realistic R n D off to just allow flexibility with this mess. Also, if you're still flying Nates and A6M2 you deserve some Ki-94!!!

So, looks like you have it sorted at least. One thing might be to decide which groups stay with the crapiest planes all of the way through and keep those as training groups only. That way you won't have to actually use the Idas, Claudes and Nates. I still had all of those flying in 45, but always training.

So it looks bad, but if you drop 1/3 of the groups in a training bucket the rest might not look so awful. Especially when the CVE will ALL have FM-1 and FM-2. Even Bettys and Vals can sink CVEs and amphibs with a Wildcat CAP. A lot of the USAAF groups will still have the P-40 to late 44.

It all sounds like fun to me!! [;)]

I defenetly love the idea of PDU OFF... really like to see all those planes (from both sides) engaging each Others!

In my last allied game i haven't used a single FM-1 or -2 throughout Jan 1945!
Same for many models of P-39s etc etc...

Moving forward with the analysis...

The IJNAF fighters are somehow those that are in the worst situation.

From the ones that are online in the first 15 months of the war, 3 Sentais (3x36 planes) are stuck to the A6M2 untill the A6M2Sen Baku becomes available (2/44), cause the upgrade path is the following A6M2->A6M2Sen Baku->A6M5->A6M5b etc etc...
4 more sentais have the A6M3a between the A6M2 and the A6M5 (skipping the A6M3).
3 more are in the same situation, but get the A6M3 instead of the A6M3a.
3 cannot upgrade anymore after the A6M5c, while the majority can get to the A7M3 or the A7M2 (very few have both these aiframes in the path).
Some skip the A6M5b version. Some not.
2 more Sentais become Night Fighters after the A6M3a (A6M2->A6M3a->J1n1->A6M5d-S->S1A1)
Only one of the IJN sentais that arrive on the first 15 months can upgrade to the N1K line (but skipping the N1K1 model[8|])... A6M2->A6M3a->A6M5->N1K2->N1K5->J7W1.

The other 4 groups that can get to the George line start to arrive after 702 days... and 2 of them are stuck with the N1K1 model, without any option to get to the N1k2 or later; the other two jump immediately to the N1K2 and then N1K5...but not before late 1944[X(]

Same for the Jack lines.


The IJAAF is in a somehow better situation, even if the Tojo won't be anymore a first line fighter.
At best, in 1942, only 4 sentais will be able to upgrade to the KI-44 line (2 will get the KI-44a, while the other two will skip the "a" model and get directly to the "b" and "c")... so at best we're gonna have 160 Tojos (a, b and c) by the first half of 1943
The rest of the IJAAF (approx 70%) will fly KI-43 Ic, IIa, IIb and IIIa untill late 1943, with more or less 25% that should be able to field 3 different models of Nicks and KI-61c and d...

Hopefully, with some heavy RnD, approx 30% of the IJAAF may be able to field KI-84a and some decent Tony models by the beginning of 1944... at best!

[GreyJoy]

This is a good example of the bottlenecks i'm finding...

This Sentai can easily upgrade (with a bit of RnD) to the IIb version of the Oscar... then the KI-61 KAI.which is bound to arrive in august 1944, slows down everything.
If you want to get to the KI-100 at a decent time, you need to heavily RnD the KI-61 KAI first, and, at the same time, the KI-100 line... and there are many more groups that have other strange bottlenecks, like the KI-84b or the KI-61c (which are both on a separate production line than the KI-84a and the KI-61a or b)

[Numdydar]

Which is why I just only increase research for just a few AC models (mainly for the IJN) and leave 90% of the existing R&D factories as they are at strat. Let most of the R&D factories switch to production as they are MUCH easier to repair/adjust in production than as R&D factories.
&nbsp;
Build a few of every possible AC that Japan made historically so AGs can be upgraded as needed to the models I really want [:)]. I'm in Jan '43 of a Scen 1 GC with PDU Off and it is really interesting to being forced to use Oscar I's still as a front line fighter [X(]

[Barb]

Greyjoy, did you thought about speeding up research for the Oscar line? It is almost the same length as Zero line - Ki-43-Ic -> IIa (11/42) -> IIb (5/43) -> IIIa (10/44) -> IV (8/45) - the later versions have armor and center-line 20mm cannons, while the older models (IIa+) can be later used as kamis with 250kg bombs...

IIb - has armor! having it a month or two earlier can save a few pilots
IIIa - nice jump in speed and climbing rate (good for CAP purpose)
IV - 20mm cannons on center-line - will hit often ..

They are not the best planes in the world, but as you said, you will be stuck with them in many units for quite a while...

[Numdydar]

Yes, 'stuck' is the correct term [:)]

[PaxMondo]

"Stuck" and "quite a while" as in for many groups the whole game IIRC.

[Numdydar]

It's Jan '43 and I can finally start upgrading to Oscar IIs as I have enough planes in the pool. Whoopee [:D]