HARM intercept

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Dimitris
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: mikeCK
ORIGINAL: Sunburn

mikeCK < If you mean that only 2 out of 10 Harpoons _impact_ a ship armed with SA-N-6, it is very likely that the majority of the blocked Harpoons are defeated by other systems than the Grumble. Both the Kirov and Slava classes (users of the SA-N-6, in addition to the modified cruiser Azov) have very strong point-defence systems and a full array of jammers and decoys. The message log should be able to tell you precisely what is happening.

NOT harpoons..these are HARMS being shot out of the sky. Smaller, faster and shorter flight time.
I POSTED THE MESSAGE LOG above in a post about 9 or 10 up. Again, here is a portion

3/14/2014 5:47:47 PM: Weapon (SA-N-6a Grumble [5R55RM] #1447) is attacking AGM-88C HARM #1419 with a base PH of 75%. Final PH: 75%. Die Roll: 21 - HIT

3/14/2014 5:47:46 PM: Weapon (SA-N-6a Grumble [5R55RM] #1445) is attacking AGM-88C HARM #1418 with a base PH of 75%. Final PH: 75%. Die Roll: 23 - HIT

3/14/2014 5:47:46 PM: Weapon (SA-N-6a Grumble [5R55RM] #1446) is attacking AGM-88C HARM #1418 with a base PH of 75%. Final PH: 75%. Die Roll: 40 - HIT

There is no way a missile fielded in 1984 (and modified over time) has a 75% hit rate on HARM missiles


You said, and I quote:
I don't know just seems a bit counterintuitive but I could launch 10 harpoons against a site with SA-n-6 missiles and only 2 might get through??
...and I explained why this may be happening.

We are sorry that you consider the AGM-88 such an invincible target. What are your sources for the SA-10/SA-N-6 not having a good Pk against such a target? The design emphasis of the S-300 family against (among others) SRAM-class targets is well documented.
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NakedWeasel
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by NakedWeasel »

Basically, it's the same probability of hitting an AAM with an SA-N-6. For all intents and purposes, the AGM-88 is a slightly beefier AIM-7. There should be modifiers that would apply here, to reduce the final PK beyond the base PK. I wonder how the game would handle the SA-N-6 versus naval cannon shells?
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NakedWeasel
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by NakedWeasel »

@Sunburn, I would only suggest that there are no real-world combat records to prove/disprove the manufacturer's claim, or the military's propaganda. And both of those sources are notoriously corrupt. Conversely, HARM's do a have a combat record. BTW, there's nothing to be sorry about. No one is implying insult or injury.
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Dimitris
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: mikeCK
Look, it's not my game. If everyone thinks it's realistic that a SAM System fielded in 1984 can pluck small missiles traveling right at it at Mach 2 (so closing speed of what...like Mach 5 or 6) from the sky at a 75% rate, then fine.

Take a look at the Pks listed here: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html
And these are against targets faster than the HARM (SRAM, Lance and Pershing-2 RV).
Or for that matter (as posted on this page above) it's realistic for an aircraft to close with a HARM and shoot it down with cannon fire????????
That's a separate issue and we'll investigate it.
Seems to me like the computer sees HARMS as the same missile as a HARPOON when calculating
No, it absolutely does not. Different speeds, different altitudes, different RCS signatures, different intercept trajectories.

Quick question - are you raising such a ruckus when your SM-2/3s are shooting down DF-whatever (a _much_ faster target) in spades? If not, why not?
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NakedWeasel
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by NakedWeasel »

I've stated before, I frequently use HARM saturation attacks to destroy Russian HVT's. It's a tactic that works in the game, and does not mar my sense of reality or immersion.
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ComDev
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by ComDev »

Okay there aren't many systems that can deal with a target like this, but the SA-10 (and Patriot) apparently can.

The SA-10 is an extremely capable system and the HARM isn't pulling off any defensive maneouvers, pumping out chaff or employing self-defence jammers. It is flying in a predictable semi-ballistic trajectory, so shouldn't be much of a problem, neither tracking nor end-game wise.

But if, like you say, it would only have a 35% chanse of hitting a Mach 2 target, what would the chanse of hitting a Mach 5 Scud then be? 4%? And SRAM 6%?

The simulator is taking target speed into account when calculating the final PoK, comparing actual target speed with the SAM system's max target speed capability, and systems that were designed to deal with fast targets like tactical ballistic missiles do not get a PoK reduction when engaging HARMs. Which I think is fair?
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Dimitris
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: NakedWeasel
@Sunburn, I would only suggest that there are no real-world combat records to prove/disprove the manufacturer's claim, or the military's propaganda.
The S-300 series has performed numerous live-fire tests against representative targets, including ballistic missiles. (Yes, the results of such tests can be white-washed. So can combat results (e.g. Patriot in Desert Storm)).
And both of those sources are notoriously corrupt.
On that I agree, only the _Russian_ military-industrial complex lies.
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(.....really [:)])
Conversely, HARM's do a have a combat record.
Yes, against systems that long pre-date the double-digit SAMs. I don't remember anyone reporting that his HARMs were shot down by SA-2/3/4/5/6s.
BTW, there's nothing to be sorry about. No one is implying insult or injury.
True, but one of the purposes of a _serious_ game is to challenge preconceptions.
AlmightyTallest
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Looking at the site here: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html

It appears the system does use shorter range SAMS in self defence but only if the missiles (ARM/cruise) manage to get into the minimum launch zone of the S300.
The popular idea of shooting cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles or standoff missiles at the S-300P/S-300V battery, assuming its location is known, is only viable where such a weapon has a sufficiently low radar signature to penetrate inside the minimum engagement range of the SAM before being detected - anything less will see the inbound missile killed by a self defensive SAM shot. The current Russian view of this is to sell Tor M2E/SA-15D Gauntlet and Pantsir S1/S2 / SA-22 self-propelled point defence SAM systems as a rapid reaction close in defensive Counter-PGM system to protect the S-300P/S-300V battery by shooting down the incoming missile if it gets past the S-300P/S-300V SAMs. Integration of the new Fakel 9M96 series point defence SAM would provide an organic Counter-PGM defensive capability in the battery.

So the question is, does a small Harm missile create enough of a radar return versus larger cruise missiles or RV's? Becuase it seems Russia realizes the problem of ordinance getting within the minimum launch zone of the S-300 and plans to use the Tor and Pantsir system to engage the Harm's, and not have the S-300 do all of the work in this case. And do the S-300 variations in the sim have a minimum engagement zone modeled?

Tactics come into play too, perhaps try getting at low altitude with the HARM shooters and fire them off at shorter ranges to the S-300. The Harm loses velocity as it travels, especially if launched at max range and high altitude. Your task is to keep the HARM at high speed, and as close to the target as you dare to decrease the systems reaction time.

There are also ARM decoy systems in the real world to consider. This public info from a 2002 source regarding the Patriot battery use of multiple ARM decoys.

http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/fm3-01.85(02).pdf

file:///C:/Users/Administrator/Downloads/ADA310623.pdf

Page 3 at the above link describes the Patriot Bait system.

The bait system involves radio bait and its decoy system, infrared bait and its decoy system. The "Patriot" air-defense guidance radar is equipped with a decoy system, which is an independent transmission system, pointing at a target with the "Patriot" guidance radar in external synchronization. In this case the carrier frequency and waveform of a transmitted signal are identical to those transmitted from an air-defense radar, and are positioned as much as possible within the ARM angular resolution range. Because of this device, ARM fails to distinguish the guidance radar from the decoy station in space, either mistakenly hitting the center of the connecting line between the guidance radar and decoy station or deviating to the latter.
ARM Alarming system

The U.S. Air Force deployed a special ARM alarming system near the warning radar AN/TPS-43E, which can control radar shut-down immediately after an ARM is detected.

http://vnfawing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=394&sid=4e84392488cdb981bc5d42a3d19f9654

http://books.google.com/books?id=K_T4M-nA6JYC&pg=PA612&lpg=PA612&dq=AN/TLQ-32&source=bl&ots=uPMyPwl4YI&sig=OTSasz6dqfkRlQ0bQ_GYV2swrxM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RPwyU-fWEqTlsASw9oDYAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=AN%2FTLQ-32&f=false

Above mentions AN/TLQ-32 ARM-D decoy system for Patriot battery.
Features of the ARM-D include it's capability to emulate frequency-agile radars; 360 degree coverage; protection of both the radar and the decoy assets against ARMs; lightweight fiber optic interface between the radar and decoy emitter groups and low prime power operations. In operational use, three decoys are allocated to each radar system. The surveillance decoys are designed to be capable of protecting the radar site from multiple missile launches, whether simultaneous or consecutive.

http://www.mobileradar.org/Other_radar_ancillary.html
TLQ-32 ARM Decoy Set
Description: A ground-based system that produces a decoy signal to protect battlefield radar from anti-radiation missiles.
Technical Data:
Dimensions:
Emitter unit: 7 x 3 x 3 ft
Unit weight: 112 lb
Characteristics:
Frequency: 2.9 to 3.1 GHz
Power: 680 W (nominal)
Coverage: 360º
Setup/teardown: < 15 min
Lift/carry: 2 persons per module
Modules per system: 3 + power source
Power requirement: 2.5 kW (GFE generator)
Units: Central control unit (CCU)
Emitters (3)
Redundant fiber-optic links
Description: The TLQ-32(V) consists of a transmitter assembly, modulator assembly, control/monitor, and antenna. The units are integrated on a pallet, with the antenna extending above the center (transmitter) module. They are interconnected by fiber-optic cable to a control unit in the radar operations shelter and protected with Kevlar. The system was designed for either fully automatic or manual operation. There is an extensive built-in test capability for ease of maintenance, and the modularity makes rapid setup and teardown possible.

The radar operator controls the system with the Central Control Unit (CCU) in the TPS-75(V) operations shelter. Three independent emitters each include a synthesizer, modulator, RF amplifiers, and control circuits; all are shock-mounted inside polypropylene transit cases that snap together to configure the emitter. The antenna at the site is installed with a quick-disconnect clamp, while a redundant fiber-optic link consists of two fibers in a loop with the data flow going in opposite directions. Optical transmitters are located at the CCU and each emitter.

The TLQ-32(V) was designed to produce a decoying signal that emulates the sidelobe radiation pattern of the TPS-75(V) tactical radar. The CCU accepts radar triggers and frequency code information, which are converted into command messages and sent via fiber-optic link to the emitters. The command messages consist of a timing signal and a frequency code, and an indicator for selecting which emitter to radiate. They are sent to the emitters, and the emissions are set up. This involves tuning the emitter to the approximate frequency of the next radar pulse and initiating the pulse timing. The decoy pulse is internally modulated to a 13-bit Barker code.

Three transmit units are located some distance from the radar, and either mask the sidelobe signals so that an attacking ARM’s seeker cannot locate the radar, or deceive incoming anti-radiation missiles into exploding harmlessly away from the radar’s antenna without destroying the decoy emitter.

The design facilitates the rapid replacement of faulty modules. The emitters are form-fit-function identical, and a line-replaceable unit or complete case can be replaced without the need for adjustment or alignment. It has an extensive built-in test capability.

Although the initial systems are limited to use with the TPS-75(V) because the modulator is hardwired to simulate the associated radar’s antenna pattern, the system can be changed to emulate other systems. The hardwiring could be changed, or a software adaptation of the output signal could be developed. This would make it easier to adapt the TLQ-32(V) ARM Decoy to other radars.

Operational Characteristics. Anti-radiation missiles use aircraft sensors to locate radar sites that pose a threat to an attack. After launch, the missile’s onboard sensors home in on the radar by sensing the characteristic pattern of the antenna sidelobes. The missile then explodes close to the antenna in an attempt to put the radar out of commission.
The ARM Decoy’s function is to mislead the missile seeker enough to make it impact or detonate harmlessly away from the main radar antenna. One anti-missile technique involves shutting off the radar transmitter, depriving the ARM of a signal to home in on. However, this puts the radar temporarily out of service during an attack - the goal of the attacker anyhow.

The TLQ-32(V) emitters are located away from the radar to be protected. With the three units set up in a configuration specifically tailored to provide incoming anti-radiation missiles with a more attractive target than the original radar antenna, the system masks the true sidelobes by specifically emulating the sidelobe pattern of the radar, the pattern on which the missile homes. Designers call the area in which the missile impacts the “ARM pit.” Distances and deployment schemes are classified. Minor adjustments in the field can match the decoy to its particular radar.

Bear in mind the above system was in full production in 1992. This helps illustrate that large SAM systems are more heavily protected than many people probably realize.



From this site: http://www.almaz-antey.ru/en/catalogue/millitary_catalogue/1218/1221/1223/1227

S-300 VM Minimum radar cross-section of engaged targets, m2 0.02



http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s400.htm
the S-400 Triumf. This fourth generation system used S-300 missiles, but possessed capabilities against low RCS stealth aircraft, small cruise missiles, and future low-RCS re-entry vehicles. The electronics were on a completely new technical basis and used new solutions to the detection, tracking, and guidance problems. The system was claimed to represent a bigger step from third generation systems (S-300PMU, S-300PMU-1, S-300PMU-2) than third generation systems represented to first generation systems. However the first trials series, completed in 2003, were unsatisfactory. The Russian government found the new system to be only 10-15% more capable than its predecessors. The decision was taken to replace some of the 48N6E missiles of the system with new versions of the 9M96, which had over double the performance. This combination was found to provide sufficient improvement to justify production.

The given RCS of the AGM-88 in this sim is currently 0.032 m2. and the S-400 system quote and S-300VM above means the Harm is getting close to the quoted S-300VM minimum RCS to be able to engage it. Given the advancements mentioned to bring the S-400 a leap above it's predecessors, it would seem to imply that older S-300 systems may not have the capability to reliably engage a rlatively low rcs missile like the HARM, and with the info above, it looks like the Russian defense industry had troubles improving on the systems performance versus such low RCS aircraft and weapons. This also helps explain the article at the top of my post having the TOR and Pantsir systems to defend legacy S-300 sites.

I would imagine these systems would have trouble if the sim player uses Offensive jamming and decoys. Probably pretty effective, along with dedicated stealth cruise missiles like the JASSM.

mikeCK
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikeCK »

[quote]ORIGINAL: Sunburn

[quote]ORIGINAL: mikeCK

[quote]ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Edit: my response was a bit unreasonable so withdrawn
thewood1
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by thewood1 »

I didn't see where Sunburn was very pissy. I did see that you edited a bunch of your posts though and you started this thread based reading the logs wrong. While it was a good discussion, it started out a wrong premise anyway.
mikeCK
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikeCK »


[/quote]
Quick question - are you raising such a ruckus when your SM-2/3s are shooting down DF-whatever (a _much_ faster target) in spades? If not, why not?
[/quote]

A ruckus? It's a legit question. I'm not being argumentative.
Just wanted to know if it's WaD and if so, how you came up with 75%. I think my harpoons have a better chance getting through!
A 75% hit rate didn't seem right. So I asked and I provided support documentation as requested and I addressed other peoples questions about it. I don't think that's a ruckus, or as you said earlier, an indication that I'm upset because my favorite missile is invincible.

This was a legitimate question with documentation
It was answered on another thread that yes, it is working and that's the number we came up with. So my question is what have you seen, other than a lack of Harm v s300 that would indicate such a high hit chance in combat.

So, I'm not trying to cause a ruckus. I was just trying to find out if this is a bug (it's not...apparently the S-300 can target ARMs) and if the 75% hit chance is correct. That's all
mikeCK
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikeCK »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I didn't see where Sunburn was very pissy. I did see that you edited a bunch of your posts though and you started this thread based reading the logs wrong. While it was a good discussion, it started out a wrong premise anyway.

I deleted it because he may not have been "pissy" when he said I was creating a ruckus. May have just been in jest so I deleted it.

Ummmm, not sure what you mean by I edited posts and read the log wrong. I posted the log back on page 2 and it shows SA-n-6 shooting down Harms. So....there was nothing "wrong" about the log or how I read it.

I'm not sure how the thread was started on the wrong premise other than I couldnt remember the type of missile used originally until it happened again...when I recorded it.

I mean, all I did was ask if something was working correctly and why 75% was used. As I stated above...I'm not sure why so many are upset with me or my posts. The premise stands. Is this all Wad (answered: it is)

Edit: oh, BTW.. Yes, I edit my posts because I use my iPhone and make a lot of spelling errors. Why would you assume an "edit" is nefarious?
thewood1
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by thewood1 »

Actually you stated in a couple places almost all the SA-6s hit HARMS. You can see my post after the one you edited and completely deleted. I stated it was 6 hits and 5 misses...not almost all. I couldn't find your comment so I assumed you deleted it.

My point is if someone saying your raising a ruckus is pissy, you have a low threshold.

edit...I see you posted at grogheads about being accused of deleting posts...you did delete a post. It is empty and it states you edited it. I am not saying you did it to hide something, but it is deleted. Am I wrong? Am I missing it?
ComDev
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by ComDev »

Bah... can we stop please [8|]

Just you wait till we got decoy transmitters in there, so that the handful HARMs that actually do get through end up hitting a decoy.

Yummy [8D]

There is a reason the SA-10 is a much respected (read: feared) system.
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AlmightyTallest
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Sounds great emsoy, don't forget the decoy stuff for the Patriots and other Worlds air defense systems.

Certainly will bring a new dynamic to the air defense arena when you guys implement all the secret squirrel stuff. [:D]

mikmykWS
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikmykWS »

You guys can actually do decoys now if you wanted. Just add a unit and disarm with the unit edit capabilities.

Mike
mikeCK
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikeCK »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually you stated in a couple places almost all the SA-6s hit HARMS. You can see my post after the one you edited and completely deleted. I stated it was 6 hits and 5 misses...not almost all. I couldn't find your comment so I assumed you deleted it.

My point is if someone saying your raising a ruckus is pissy, you have a low threshold.

edit...I see you posted at grogheads about being accused of deleting posts...you did delete a post. It is empty and it states you edited it. I am not saying you did it to hide something, but it is deleted. Am I wrong? Am I missing it?

Dude, first....I never edited anything in the log with one exception; one of the percentages got deleted when I was trying to erase something I said so I retyped i: that was one percentage on one line out of the whole log. I retyped it exactly as it was so I don't know what the hell you're talking about with me changing my log...the log is accurate whether you want to believe it or not...why would I take the time to make this all up?

EDIT (that's right....I'm adding something)!i offered the save game file by email if your so concerned about my ethics.

As for the post at Grogheads, here is verbatim please point out where I said you accused me of deleting a post?

"I appreciate your response. For some reason, people became very upset over my post in matrix. Accusing me of a false premise, editing posts indicating I'm changing reports, causing a ruckus etc."

I said you accuse me of editing my posts inferring that I had fixed the numbers somehow. the point was over there Dmitrius helped answered my question and that was it. and I explained why I was bringing it up at "grog heads" instead of the matrix forum. so are you following me aroundo the internet to report me

Jesus h. I'm sorry I posted a log as requested to ask whether something was a bug or working as designed. Yeah, I thought one of the replies was pissy. Later I reread it and thought I was out of line so I deleted it.

Then you go start a thread thanking the devs and apologizing for all of the people claiming things are bugged. I'm sure that was in reference to me.
Why are you so offended that I ask if something was a bug? PLEASE point out where I proclaimed this was a bug of the Devs did something wrong.

I offered my opinion, it was explained why it is set at 75% and I'm happy. Not sure whAt your problem is. From now on I will go somewhere else to ask questions. I am happy with the game but with the amount we paid, I have every right to come on here and ask about a feature and whether it is working right or not. And I don't appreciate being accused of doctoring the game log. I did not do so did have no reason to do so
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jdkbph
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by jdkbph »

Sounds like there may also be a doctrine issue here as well. I know early on (Shrike, etc) the counter was to shut down the RADAR when the ARM threat was detected. AFAIK this was still the main plan when HARM (the 88) appeared and the reason it's ability to "remember" where the emitter was even after they shut it down was a game changer. At some point, it sounds as if the counter morphed into a more active defense, but I have to wonder if it's as cut and dried as it appears.

For instance, is there a set of conditions for which passive defense (shutting down and crossing your fingers) is still the best option? Might it have something to do with...

numbers inbound
range at which the threat was detected
target mobility (eg, a ship)
predicted ability of available AD assets to successfully defeat the threat
the nature of the threat as a whole (eg, expected follow-on attacks) rather than just the HARM attack in isolation
the presence of jammers accompanying the HARM strike
etc.

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not technology and doctrine have evolved to the point where it's always the better option to keep the RADARs up and try to take out the HARMs by shooting at them with your SAMs? And if not, does the game account for this and act accordingly?

JD
JD
mikmykWS
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: mikeCK
ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually you stated in a couple places almost all the SA-6s hit HARMS. You can see my post after the one you edited and completely deleted. I stated it was 6 hits and 5 misses...not almost all. I couldn't find your comment so I assumed you deleted it.

My point is if someone saying your raising a ruckus is pissy, you have a low threshold.

edit...I see you posted at grogheads about being accused of deleting posts...you did delete a post. It is empty and it states you edited it. I am not saying you did it to hide something, but it is deleted. Am I wrong? Am I missing it?

Dude, first....I never edited anything in the log with one exception; one of the percentages got deleted when I was trying to erase something I said so I retyped i: that was one percentage on one line out of the whole log. I retyped it exactly as it was so I don't know what the hell you're talking about with me changing my log...the log is accurate whether you want to believe it or not...why would I take the time to make this all up?

EDIT (that's right....I'm adding something)!i offered the save game file by email if your so concerned about my ethics.

As for the post at Grogheads, here is verbatim please point out where I said you accused me of deleting a post?

"I appreciate your response. For some reason, people became very upset over my post in matrix. Accusing me of a false premise, editing posts indicating I'm changing reports, causing a ruckus etc."

I said you accuse me of editing my posts inferring that I had fixed the numbers somehow. the point was over there Dmitrius helped answered my question and that was it. and I explained why I was bringing it up at "grog heads" instead of the matrix forum. so are you following me aroundo the internet to report me

Jesus h. I'm sorry I posted a log as requested to ask whether something was a bug or working as designed. Yeah, I thought one of the replies was pissy. Later I reread it and thought I was out of line so I deleted it.

Then you go start a thread thanking the devs and apologizing for all of the people claiming things are bugged. I'm sure that was in reference to me.
Why are you so offended that I ask if something was a bug? PLEASE point out where I proclaimed this was a bug of the Devs did something wrong.

I offered my opinion, it was explained why it is set at 75% and I'm happy. Not sure whAt your problem is. From now on I will go somewhere else to ask questions. I am happy with the game but with the amount we paid, I have every right to come on here and ask about a feature and whether it is working right or not. And I don't appreciate being accused of doctoring the game log. I did not do so did have no reason to do so

Can you guys ease up a bit. Little too much excitement for a Wednesday.

Thanks!

Mike
mikmykWS
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RE: HARM intercept

Post by mikmykWS »

ORIGINAL: jdkbph

Sounds like there may also be a doctrine issue here as well. I know early on (Shrike, etc) the counter was to shut down the RADAR when the ARM threat was detected. AFAIK this was still the main plan when HARM (the 88) appeared and the reason it's ability to "remember" where the emitter was even after they shut it down was a game changer. At some point, it sounds as if the counter morphed into a more active defense, but I have to wonder if it's as cut and dried as it appears.

For instance, is there a set of conditions for which passive defense (shutting down and crossing your fingers) is still the best option? Might it have something to do with...

numbers inbound
range at which the threat was detected
target mobility (eg, a ship)
predicted ability of available AD assets to successfully defeat the threat
the nature of the threat as a whole (eg, expected follow-on attacks) rather than just the HARM attack in isolation
the presence of jammers accompanying the HARM strike
etc.

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not technology and doctrine have evolved to the point where it's always the better option to keep the RADARs up and try to take out the HARMs by shooting at them with your SAMs? And if not, does the game account for this and act accordingly?

JD

This is a great point. Lots of cases to cover though.

Mike
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