2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome)

Wuffer · Post by **Wuffer** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:48 pm

Says the Defender Of Baku

Really, you have the Insight

)

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:00 pm

Turn 104, 10 june 1943

Big (decisive?) battle of tanks on the eastern bank of the Volga. I do te "Volga right hook" (TM) to encircle the russians.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:02 pm

A view of the russians units destroyed

And an illustration of a typical turn in the north

Wuffer · Post by **Wuffer** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:36 pm

Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones?

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:36 pm

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones?

Yes, his Corps have CV between 8 and 12.

Time to finish this game...

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Turn 105, 17 june 1943

Never underestimate mobilty of Pzd/Mot!!!

The "Volga right hook" (TM) moves ahead. situation of russian troops South east of Stalingrad is critical!

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:19 pm

Turn 106, 24 june 1943

Collapse of the russian front line. I drive at full speed to the north, move 1 Pz Corps from Saratov to break the line and complete with a breakthrough from Stalingrad.

I think the game is virtually ended, the backbone of the russian army South of Saratov is doomed.

In the north I loose Vichny-Voloshek and a stack of 3 rifle corps still resists on the caspian beaches.

M60A3TTS · Post by **M60A3TTS** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:31 pm

Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.

rbrockman2 · Post by **rbrockman2** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:05 pm

It's not over yet, but Red Team cannot afford to keep losing units like this all summer. How is the truck situation? I bet those panzers are thirsty.

We also see here how mobility is so brutal. From the standpoint of the past few turns most of those panzer divisions could have been outfitted with Pz IA's and the result would have been basically the same.

It's amazing that Red Team is still at ~6M even though they have been getting hammered almost continually (except mud) for over a year. The tank factories in the Urals would make good the brutal losses in a few months if the Red Army were left unmolested (not likely).

I found it quite odd that Red Team deployed any forces at all, especially the mobile forces, between Saratov and Astrakhan. There's very little there worth defending -- the infantry could have been holding a line in better terrain much farther north, while the mobile forces could have been involved in a combined arms counterattack far away from the panzers. Now all of those forces are toast.

Keeping Red Team down requires that the panzers be continually isolating groups of Russians. Forcing the panzers to redeploy by rail by counterattacking far away or abandoning the area near the panzers buys *time* for the Russians to regroup. If things keep going the way they have, the main mob of panzers will end up driving all the way from the Caucasus to Moscow while cutting off units nearly every turn.

janh · Post by **janh** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:54 am

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.

Looks like it already has so a few turns ago... Given the force ratios and that at this point the German Army was and now also is at the peak strength, with still quite an advantage in quality, the Soviets appear to be merely prey. Seems there is a lack of depth to the Red lines, which in turn may be a consequence of the bitter losses since spring 42. This trend will probably accelerate as success promotes itself.

This game and AAR are really great, I never thought anything like this was doable as German against a human opponent. Especially after a mediocre, quite normal Barbarossa start. The German standing and recovery power is astonishing. Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

Tarhunnas · Post by **Tarhunnas** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:00 am

ORIGINAL: janh
Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

The very permissive logistics in WITE are IMHO its weakest point.

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:32 pm

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.

Thanks

I think the game is over, SHC won't recover. My Pzd/Mot are now close from my railhead and will get plenty of MP's

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:38 pm

ORIGINAL: rbrockman2

I found it quite odd that Red Team deployed any forces at all, especially the mobile forces, between Saratov and Astrakhan. There's very little there worth defending -- the infantry could have been holding a line in better terrain much farther north, while the mobile forces could have been involved in a combined arms counterattack far away from the panzers. Now all of those forces are toast.

1) It was a huge mistake to keep such strong rifle corps South west of Astrakhan. They would have been unbeatable on the Volga
2) Once Astrakhan lost, he should have waited with his tank corps around Stalingrad. They were too weak alone .

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:42 pm

ORIGINAL: janh

This game and AAR are really great, I never thought anything like this was doable as German against a human opponent. Especially after a mediocre, quite normal Barbarossa start. The German standing and recovery power is astonishing. Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

Thanks

I was also surprised with the ability of the Pzd/Mot to keep MP's but:
- in 1942 almost all my moves were close from my railhead.
- in 1943, I only advanced in the Caucasus with 3 or 4 of my FBD's in this area. It's a great difference with 1941

STEF78 · Post by **STEF78** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:53 pm

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: janh
Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

The very permissive logistics in WITE are IMHO its weakest point.

Maybe I don't have enough historical background to evaluate this point

Wuffer · Post by **Wuffer** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:52 pm

ORIGINAL: STEF78

ORIGINAL: rbrockman2

I found it quite odd that Red Team deployed any forces at all, especially the mobile forces, between Saratov and Astrakhan. There's very little there worth defending -- the infantry could have been holding a line in better terrain much farther north, while the mobile forces could have been involved in a combined arms counterattack far away from the panzers. Now all of those forces are toast.
1) It was a huge mistake to keep such strong rifle corps South west of Astrakhan. They would have been unbeatable on the Volga
2) Once Astrakhan lost, he should have waited with his tank corps around Stalingrad. They were too weak alone .

as always, the side with the fewer and less important failures win.

don't get me wrong, it's impossible to play without mistakes, but hopefully they don't become decisive

... and 'never interrupt your opponent while he is making mistakes', said Big Winston C.
Perhaps you encouraged Stavka?

good news for the nazis,
bad news for the poor guys at the coming desaster of Ohama beach,
very bad news for the people of nuremberg and berlin on August 6, 1945,
and yeah, you changed history.

"We survived the Nazis, we beat Communism", as De Gaulles said the day before he was shot in 1947, "but after Free French Forces had liberate the Ukraine, the Hydra just emerges another ugly head..."

Balou · Post by **Balou** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:18 am

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I was also surprised with the ability of the Pzd/Mot to keep MP's but:
- in 1942 almost all my moves were close from my railhead.
- in 1943, I only advanced in the Caucasus with 3 or 4 of my FBD's in this area. It's a great difference with 1941

And what about he "mild blizzard" I thought was one of the objectives to look after ?

loki100 · Post by **loki100** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:41 am

ORIGINAL: STEF78

ORIGINAL: janh

This game and AAR are really great, I never thought anything like this was doable as German against a human opponent. Especially after a mediocre, quite normal Barbarossa start. The German standing and recovery power is astonishing. Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.
Thanks

I was also surprised with the ability of the Pzd/Mot to keep MP's but:
- in 1942 almost all my moves were close from my railhead.
- in 1943, I only advanced in the Caucasus with 3 or 4 of my FBD's in this area. It's a great difference with 1941

I think you first point is key. Its clear that you were able to inflict massive damage in the spring/summer of 1942 by launching encirclements relatively close to your front lines. That seemed to weaken the Red Army enough to allow your deeper operations that then followed.

continues to be a great read, and congrats to both of you ....

ORIGINAL: Balou

And what about he "mild blizzard" I thought was one of the objectives to look after ?

I'd suggest that this is the launch pad to what we are seeing. The mild blizzard produces a much more realistic winter giving the Soviets the chance to inflict damage but not really to close the game down. What matters, I now think, is how the Soviet player manages their gains (in particular in units with high experience) and hopefully leaves the Germans strong enough to only make one major effort in 1942.

To me, frogmarc left too much of the good units you can build up in the winter in very vulnerable positions and, as above, lost them in the opening set of pockets that STEF78 generated.

On this basis, a good Soviet strategy has to be to pull the really good units into reserve, and try to trade space for time till the German offensive wears itself down. Easier said than done, but overall we are starting to see a number of gains were, quite rightly, 1942 is the decisive year.

janh · Post by **janh** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:17 am

ORIGINAL: loki100
On this basis, a good Soviet strategy has to be to pull the really good units into reserve, and try to trade space for time till the German offensive wears itself down. Easier said than done, but overall we are starting to see a number of gains were, quite rightly, 1942 is the decisive year.

Agree, the Mild winter is great. It can hurt the German, but not devastate them. It requires the Soviet player to prepare for a Winter offensive in certain sectors as the impact or advantages no longer allow a sustained effort across all the front as was. One without any danger from German counterattacks. With mild winter the forth and back appears much more realistic and plausible.

The key for 42 then seem to be the close railheads, and how the German side enters the mud period. If the winter offensive was not sufficient, i.e. if the Soviet had not had the means to extract a toll, or the German skillfully traded the ground (with his hindsight of what will follow in summer), the German side can inflict huge pockets on the Red Army. The latter must create depth to his lines before mud and withdraw/form reserves in the rear, else... I guess a short "Blue" kind of German rush is inevitable in the wide open terrain of the South, so better be prepared.

Balou · Post by **Balou** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:50 am

Has a mild blizzard per se (w/o fighting) less impact on morale and on attrition losses ? Resulting in high-morale-case-blue-troops armed to the teeth to an early date ?