Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

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Lokasenna
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Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

So we're all familiar with all of the ship repair threads, especially Alfred's. I have a question that may not have been asked before.

We know, from both Alfred and the interface, that it is possible to see the "Repair Points" allocated to a ship, and the percentage progress towards repairing a point of damage that those Repair Points represent. We also know that it's possible (indeed, likely) that a ship will accumulate less than 100% of the Repair Points necessary to fix a point of damage in any given day.

In some cases, particularly at large ports or smaller shipyards, it is possible (again, likely) that a ship will accrue more Repair Points in Pier Side than in Shipyard repair. This can mean that repairing 32 Sys on a BB at a size 10 port is much faster at Pier Side than it is in the port's Size 50 (or Size 100) Shipyard.

Consider the following scenario.

A large ship (CA or bigger) is repairing a medium amount of System and Floatation damage. Assume that the ship accrues 30% or 40% of its needed Repair Points per day at Pier Side, but only 20% of its needed points in the Shipyard. However, when a ship is changed to a different mode of repair, it keeps its repair points (to the best of my knowledge). Is it possible to substantially decrease the time required by taking advantage of which point of damage is repaired in which mode? Like so:

Day 1: Pier Side - Ship has 40% Repair Points. Damage is 35 Sys/35 Float.
Day 2: Pier Side - Ship has 80% Repair Points.
Day 3: Switch to Shipyard. Ship accrues to 100% Repair Points. Damage is now 35 Sys/34 Float, due to the Shipyard repairing the Floatation damage before System (Repair goes by "band", per Alfred's Ship Repair 101)

Now, those are just arbitrary numbers I've tossed out for point accumulation in Pier/Shipyard, however it's not uncommon for a ship to repair damage at pier side (so-called Minor Damage) faster than the Major Floatation or Major Engine that you need a Shipyard to fix. If so, wouldn't using this "trick" drastically decrease the amount of time it takes for some ships to repair?

For example, a pre-war USN BB with 33 Sys and 28 Float damage has a repair estimate at Pier Side of "25#" at Pearl Harbor, or Shipyard 167. Therefore, it will only take 25 days to repair 33 System damage - it accumulates almost a point per day at 33 System damage (higher levels of damage = slower accumulation of points, if I'm understanding Alfred's 101 correctly, and this tracks with my in-game experience). So you put it in Pier Side for Day 1, and on Day 2 swap it to Shipyard - it should accumulate enough points in Shipyard to reach 100% Repair Points and drop the Floatation damage by 1 over the course of those two days, which I believe is far faster than it would repair if it were in Shipyard mode for both of those days. Using this method, one could repair this BB's 28 Floatation damage in about 56 days, and then repair the System in about 25 days, for a total repair time of 81 days. It took the Shipyard about 3 days to repair one point of major floatation damage, so the 56 days is about 2/3 of the "correct repair time."



Did I explain that well enough? Is this possible?

If so, that seems like an exploit. However, I'm not sure that dropping all Repair Points when switching modes would be a desirable fix, despite being the most obvious.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by rustysi »

OK, interesting premise, but I don't think it'll work. Here's why. I think the program repairs damage in an equitable fashion. ie. If sys damage is much greater than float damage it'll fix sys before float. Also doesn't it take time to go in/out of the shipyard? I'm not sure that any repairs would be made on the transient days. Also keep in mind that you can incure damage to the vessel just by putting it into/outta the yard. Not 100% sure but just something to think about.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by oldman45 »

There is one other thing to consider, when you switch from shipyard to pierside, there is a delay of the ship "leaving the yards". I think its a couple of days, it might be longer. I have never noticed but I don't think you would accumulate any repair points during this period.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

I have never noticed lag time in moving in and out of the Shipyard, only in going from any state of repair (Pier/SY/Repair Ship) to Readiness.

My in-game experience says there isn't a delay. Look at this:
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ORIGINAL: rustysi

OK, interesting premise, but I don't think it'll work. Here's why. I think the program repairs damage in an equitable fashion. ie. If sys damage is much greater than float damage it'll fix sys before float. Also doesn't it take time to go in/out of the shipyard? I'm not sure that any repairs would be made on the transient days. Also keep in mind that you can incure damage to the vessel just by putting it into/outta the yard. Not 100% sure but just something to think about.

According to Alfred's Repair 101, it goes in "bands" - with floatation receiving double consideration (if I remember correctly). So if Floatation is greater than half of System, Floatation gets fixed first if possible, like when in a Shipyard.


As far as incurring damage when putting into/out of yard, it's only a chance of System damage when taking a ship offline or putting it back online - and only a point or two. I've never noticed it actually occur, but that doesn't mean it's never happened to me. I have witnessed a repair accident where Sys has jumped back up a point or two instead of going down.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by crsutton »

Lokasenna is right. A three day delay when you move a ship to active. Moving to shipyard-pierside causes no delays. I have messed around with this a bit but never really found that it makes much difference. Only real thing worth watching is that when a ship shows all green for all remaining damage, you can them move it pierside to complete the repairs and it won't count against your shipyard capacity. And, I only fool with this after major battles when the yards tend to get crowded.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Lokasenna is right. A three day delay when you move a ship to active. Moving to shipyard-pierside causes no delays. I have messed around with this a bit but never really found that it makes much difference. Only real thing worth watching is that when a ship shows all green for all remaining damage, you can them move it pierside to complete the repairs and it won't count against your shipyard capacity. And, I only fool with this after major battles when the yards tend to get crowded.

I have a test case going in each of my Allies games right now, so there might be an answer forthcoming :). With the previous repair estimates written down here, it should be easy to see if moving them about in the piers/yards makes any difference in time.

In most cases though, it would still be better on your brain if you just stick the ship in the yards and forget about it until it's finished. Post-Pearl Harbor strike or some other time when you have large ships with lots of system damage are the only times this is going to make a difference, if it even works.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: crsutton

Lokasenna is right. A three day delay when you move a ship to active. Moving to shipyard-pierside causes no delays. I have messed around with this a bit but never really found that it makes much difference. Only real thing worth watching is that when a ship shows all green for all remaining damage, you can them move it pierside to complete the repairs and it won't count against your shipyard capacity. And, I only fool with this after major battles when the yards tend to get crowded.

I have a test case going in each of my Allies games right now, so there might be an answer forthcoming :). With the previous repair estimates written down here, it should be easy to see if moving them about in the piers/yards makes any difference in time.

In most cases though, it would still be better on your brain if you just stick the ship in the yards and forget about it until it's finished. Post-Pearl Harbor strike or some other time when you have large ships with lots of system damage are the only times this is going to make a difference, if it even works.

Yep, it works exactly as I thought it might.

Last turn, BB Pennsylvania:
Sys 19, Flt 24(24), Eng 34(34), Pier Side mid-70% repair points

This turn, BB Pennsylvania (moved to Shipyard):
Sys 19, Flt 23(23), Eng 34(34), Shipyard 25% repair points
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by obvert »

I guess I don't understand the issue. Aren't we just able to move them back and forth with no penalty because that's what actually happened in a shipyard? When they needed time in a dry dock they were put into one. When there might be other ships needing that more they were hitched up to a pier and work was done there until there was space to get them back into the dock. The times for each are different at each stage and for each type of damage, dependent on the port size and naval support. You can also move them to a repair ship with no penalty in days between.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by wdolson »

It takes time to put a ship into dry dock and then take it out again. The engine does allow you to move a ship in and out of dry dock at will with no time penalty as long as you don't switch to readiness. A bit of a design flaw of the algorithm.

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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by obvert »

How much time? I've looked around a bit, but all I can find are notes saying the date a ship entered a dry dock, or left it, and none of those reference multiple days of transition. Was it really impossible to take a ship out of dry dock one day and continue work on systems at pier side the next day?

This from information about PH salvage and repair ops. I'd love to find something more detailed, to see really what was actually happening step by step.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/ph-wv9.htm

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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Chickenboy »

Lokasenna,

I also monkey with this to best optimize shipyard capacity, toggling ships regularly between shipyard and pierside settings to free up available shipyard capacity. I doubt I'm the only one.

I wonder if you might not be mischaracterizing the definition of 'shipyard' for purposes of repair in this game. Everyone can picture 'pierside' for repair and / or resupply / fueling. I don't think 'shipyard' means 'drydock' per se. If 'shipyard' is extrapolated to include others means of repair around the base (AR support, naval support, more engineers pointed to the project, repairmen, etc.), there's no reason why the shipyard repairs can't be a 'flexible' definition of shipyard. Sure, it would take some time to move a ship from drydock per se-likely several days-but shipyard doesn't equal drydock necessarily. As a result, I don't see any exploitation in the process. Categorizing a ship as 'shipyard' may just mean that it has more fungible resources of the repair center in the base. These can be moved more easily than pulling a ship in or out of drydock.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by wdolson »

If I remember correctly, shipyard repair pretty much did mean dry dock. If I recall correctly, the tonnage size of the shipyard is the size of the dry dock space in that port.

To put a ship into dry dock, you need to stabilize the ship while you drain the water out, then place blocks around the hull of the ship so it doesn't fall over while work is being done. For a small dry dock this may only take a couple of hours, but for a large ship, this can take more than a day. A floating dry dock is a bit different. The dock basically rises out of the water and lifts the ship under repair. Care still needs to be taken to make sure the ship under repair doesn't tip over.

It's a career limiting move to allow an aircraft carrier to fall over in your dry dock.

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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If I remember correctly, shipyard repair pretty much did mean dry dock. If I recall correctly, the tonnage size of the shipyard is the size of the dry dock space in that port.

To put a ship into dry dock, you need to stabilize the ship while you drain the water out, then place blocks around the hull of the ship so it doesn't fall over while work is being done. For a small dry dock this may only take a couple of hours, but for a large ship, this can take more than a day. A floating dry dock is a bit different. The dock basically rises out of the water and lifts the ship under repair. Care still needs to be taken to make sure the ship under repair doesn't tip over.

It's a career limiting move to allow an aircraft carrier to fall over in your dry dock.

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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Lokasenna,

I also monkey with this to best optimize shipyard capacity, toggling ships regularly between shipyard and pierside settings to free up available shipyard capacity. I doubt I'm the only one.

I wonder if you might not be mischaracterizing the definition of 'shipyard' for purposes of repair in this game. Everyone can picture 'pierside' for repair and / or resupply / fueling. I don't think 'shipyard' means 'drydock' per se. If 'shipyard' is extrapolated to include others means of repair around the base (AR support, naval support, more engineers pointed to the project, repairmen, etc.), there's no reason why the shipyard repairs can't be a 'flexible' definition of shipyard. Sure, it would take some time to move a ship from drydock per se-likely several days-but shipyard doesn't equal drydock necessarily. As a result, I don't see any exploitation in the process. Categorizing a ship as 'shipyard' may just mean that it has more fungible resources of the repair center in the base. These can be moved more easily than pulling a ship in or out of drydock.

I suppose if you abstract it, however I don't think gaming it this way was really intended. What I'm talking about is different than just managing shipyard space for optimal repair times, it is purposefully manipulating your ships in the shipyard for the purpose of decreasing repair times. The point of the Shipyard is to repair major damage, but since Repair Points are a single value rather than progress towards fixing either Minor or Major damage, it's possible to sit in Pier Side to make progress towards fixing a Minor point of damage (which is faster), and then force the engine to use those points towards fixing the Major damage.


Obvert: Basically, if you have any minor damage on a ship combined with major damage, your ship can accumulate Repair Points faster in Pier Side rather than in Shipyard mode. If this is at a rate that doesn't quite hit 100%, you can move the ship instantly into the Shipyard when it's going to "roll over" the 100% mark and therefore get a time discount on repairing your major damage. Assuming that the damage numbers fit this circumstance.

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If I remember correctly, shipyard repair pretty much did mean dry dock. If I recall correctly, the tonnage size of the shipyard is the size of the dry dock space in that port.

To put a ship into dry dock, you need to stabilize the ship while you drain the water out, then place blocks around the hull of the ship so it doesn't fall over while work is being done. For a small dry dock this may only take a couple of hours, but for a large ship, this can take more than a day. A floating dry dock is a bit different. The dock basically rises out of the water and lifts the ship under repair. Care still needs to be taken to make sure the ship under repair doesn't tip over.

It's a career limiting move to allow an aircraft carrier to fall over in your dry dock.

Bill

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That's a pretty funny statement right there.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Lokasenna,

I also monkey with this to best optimize shipyard capacity, toggling ships regularly between shipyard and pierside settings to free up available shipyard capacity. I doubt I'm the only one.

I wonder if you might not be mischaracterizing the definition of 'shipyard' for purposes of repair in this game. Everyone can picture 'pierside' for repair and / or resupply / fueling. I don't think 'shipyard' means 'drydock' per se. If 'shipyard' is extrapolated to include others means of repair around the base (AR support, naval support, more engineers pointed to the project, repairmen, etc.), there's no reason why the shipyard repairs can't be a 'flexible' definition of shipyard. Sure, it would take some time to move a ship from drydock per se-likely several days-but shipyard doesn't equal drydock necessarily. As a result, I don't see any exploitation in the process. Categorizing a ship as 'shipyard' may just mean that it has more fungible resources of the repair center in the base. These can be moved more easily than pulling a ship in or out of drydock.

I suppose if you abstract it, however I don't think gaming it this way was really intended. What I'm talking about is different than just managing shipyard space for optimal repair times, it is purposefully manipulating your ships in the shipyard for the purpose of decreasing repair times. The point of the Shipyard is to repair major damage, but since Repair Points are a single value rather than progress towards fixing either Minor or Major damage, it's possible to sit in Pier Side to make progress towards fixing a Minor point of damage (which is faster), and then force the engine to use those points towards fixing the Major damage.


Obvert: Basically, if you have any minor damage on a ship combined with major damage, your ship can accumulate Repair Points faster in Pier Side rather than in Shipyard mode. If this is at a rate that doesn't quite hit 100%, you can move the ship instantly into the Shipyard when it's going to "roll over" the 100% mark and therefore get a time discount on repairing your major damage. Assuming that the damage numbers fit this circumstance.

I guess I think this isn't that big of a deal. I simply assume the transition cost of time to get into and out of repairing in dry dock is incorporated into the repair time. If somebody can tweak an extra day or two out of a 150 day repair, i'm not so bothered. Call it a repair crew incentive program at the pub, which is exactly where I'm going right now!! [:D]
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Lokasenna,

I also monkey with this to best optimize shipyard capacity, toggling ships regularly between shipyard and pierside settings to free up available shipyard capacity. I doubt I'm the only one.

I wonder if you might not be mischaracterizing the definition of 'shipyard' for purposes of repair in this game. Everyone can picture 'pierside' for repair and / or resupply / fueling. I don't think 'shipyard' means 'drydock' per se. If 'shipyard' is extrapolated to include others means of repair around the base (AR support, naval support, more engineers pointed to the project, repairmen, etc.), there's no reason why the shipyard repairs can't be a 'flexible' definition of shipyard. Sure, it would take some time to move a ship from drydock per se-likely several days-but shipyard doesn't equal drydock necessarily. As a result, I don't see any exploitation in the process. Categorizing a ship as 'shipyard' may just mean that it has more fungible resources of the repair center in the base. These can be moved more easily than pulling a ship in or out of drydock.

I suppose if you abstract it, however I don't think gaming it this way was really intended. What I'm talking about is different than just managing shipyard space for optimal repair times, it is purposefully manipulating your ships in the shipyard for the purpose of decreasing repair times. The point of the Shipyard is to repair major damage, but since Repair Points are a single value rather than progress towards fixing either Minor or Major damage, it's possible to sit in Pier Side to make progress towards fixing a Minor point of damage (which is faster), and then force the engine to use those points towards fixing the Major damage.


Obvert: Basically, if you have any minor damage on a ship combined with major damage, your ship can accumulate Repair Points faster in Pier Side rather than in Shipyard mode. If this is at a rate that doesn't quite hit 100%, you can move the ship instantly into the Shipyard when it's going to "roll over" the 100% mark and therefore get a time discount on repairing your major damage. Assuming that the damage numbers fit this circumstance.

I guess I think this isn't that big of a deal. I simply assume the transition cost of time to get into and out of repairing in dry dock is incorporated into the repair time. If somebody can tweak an extra day or two out of a 150 day repair, i'm not so bothered. Call it a repair crew incentive program at the pub, which is exactly where I'm going right now!! [:D]

In the example above of the 33 Sys/28 Float, it turns an estimate of 167 days in the Shipyard into about 81 days, or roughly half of the repair time. That's way more than teasing out a day or two. This is particularly noticeable on large ships in large ports with medium shipyards (such as Pearl Harbor), as the large port with naval support and ARs will provide many more potential repair points than the shipyard. These points can rapidly fix System damage, but not quite at a point per day on these high-durability ships. You can then take these accrued points, which would have been applied to System damage once 100% was reached, and effectively apply them to Floatation instead.

I'm not saying I'm above doing this. I'm definitely doing this, when I can remember to pay attention to my ships.

Consider this a dual motivation thread: "Should the game really play like this?" and "If I'm doing it, other people should know about it because it's sketchy."
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by btd64 »

I have CV Lex in PH shipyard with two other BB's. Moved a BB to pierside and the time to repair Lex went from 102 days to 76 days. I have been shuffling around ships in repair for a long time. It has always appeared to be a space management thing to me. Space (Tonnage) is the key. If you go over the tonnage you slow repair. I know I read somewhere that the game prioritizes different ships, but I don't remember if it goes by tonnage or type,CV,BB,CA,CL etc.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Xargun »

ORIGINAL: General Patton

I have CV Lex in PH shipyard with two other BB's. Moved a BB to pierside and the time to repair Lex went from 102 days to 76 days. I have been shuffling around ships in repair for a long time. It has always appeared to be a space management thing to me. Space (Tonnage) is the key. If you go over the tonnage you slow repair. I know I read somewhere that the game prioritizes different ships, but I don't remember if it goes by tonnage or type,CV,BB,CA,CL etc.
Cheers

This is true if you overcrowd your shipyards for repairs. I believe what Lokasenna is saying is that you can manipulate the repair process to speed up repairs beyond the normal process that most people know about overcrowding and setting priorities on ships. I for one did not know you could manipulate it further and it is interesting. Not sure if I want to spend the time to do it, but I think it could give a large advantage if someone wanted to spend the time doing it.
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RE: Ship Repairs - is it possible to "game" them?

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So we're all familiar with all of the ship repair threads, especially Alfred's. I have a question that may not have been asked before.
Of course it's possible to "game" it. The game is flexible, so one can "game" just about anything.

Little 12 year olds that just wanna get the computer auto-victory, can do it in a heartbeat. Good on you for finding yet another smelly outhouse that people can go visit and discuss and ruminate over the size, length and girth of the logs they find. Sooner or later the liddle kiddle's acne will clear up, they will get older and acquire a skoosh of wisdom, and figure out what this game is about. Till then, you go, boy ! Computer game "cheats" is what it's all about. It's not the game system, it's getting the "cheats" so one can win. But then winning is what it's all about, even though you cheat, isn't that right?
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