Chinese LCU Respwan

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Xargun

This is important to me as well.. My opponent throws his depleted chinese units across rivers and into my units counting on my units to destroy them and he gets a free rebuilt unit containing more squads than it had before. Seems a bit fishy to me - allows the chinese (allied) player to throw his units away, knowing he'll get it back in a stronger condition.


No, the rule, as stated in the manual and going back to WITP, allows the Allied player the option of trading time (months) and defense space (the unit appears very far back, in the capital), for the Japanese getting VPs NOW.

I fixed it for you.

(Yeah, I'm steamed. This was not a bug fix. This was a gameplay change and not disclosed so far as I can find.)
The Moose
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Yaab
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Yaab »


Here is what I have got from an older game, probably from November 2013. The destroyed 8th New Corps is in the arrival queue at 16% of its TOE.

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michaelm75au
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

For unit 7677, those numbers appear to be within the expected numbers. The Rifle squads are low (max would be 54) due to the randomizing.
[If 54 is the max possible, then actual return is random(1..54). The randomizing is applied if the squad antiSoft value >10. This seems to have come in around 1123r according to my code comments - can't recall it but suspect it may something to do with the higher the aS value, the more resources required to turn out the device. Probably true in most cases, but with the Chinese, the higher aS was more to do with 'mass attack' than finesse I suppose. :) May be I should remove the restriction from Chinese units?????]
The second unit does look like it was respawned as it contains non-squad device (0) and Support (squad) with 16 ( TOE of 50/3).

Ah, so really it's randomized between 1 and (1/3 of TOE)? In this case, TOE is 162 squads, so anywhere from 1-54 squads could have shown up? That's my understanding from your comment, but I want to confirm.
Yes.
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michaelm75au
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

For unit 7677, those numbers appear to be within the expected numbers. The Rifle squads are low (max would be 54) due to the randomizing.
[If 54 is the max possible, then actual return is random(1..54). The randomizing is applied if the squad antiSoft value >10. This seems to have come in around 1123r according to my code comments - can't recall it but suspect it may something to do with the higher the aS value, the more resources required to turn out the device. Probably true in most cases, but with the Chinese, the higher aS was more to do with 'mass attack' than finesse I suppose. :) May be I should remove the restriction from Chinese units?????]
The second unit does look like it was respawned as it contains non-squad device (0) and Support (squad) with 16 ( TOE of 50/3).

Ah, so really it's randomized between 1 and (1/3 of TOE)? In this case, TOE is 162 squads, so anywhere from 1-54 squads could have shown up? That's my understanding from your comment, but I want to confirm.

I assume you get 162 squads from the editor?

This is what the unit looks like on 12/7/41 in a clean Scen 2 game.
Yes. Based on the TOE it is pointing to.
Michael
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michaelm75au
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by michaelm75au »

At the moment, I am leaning towards either dropping the randomizing or raising the limits especially as the Chinese 'infantry' are treated as an endless supply of fodder.[:D]
Michael
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Lokasenna
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At the moment, I am leaning towards either dropping the randomizing or raising the limits especially as the Chinese 'infantry' are treated as an endless supply of fodder.[:D]

Has it always been random? I haven't been paying attention to them - I always just figured "Oh, that unit died, it will respawn" and never bothered looking at the sizes.
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Yaab
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Yaab »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At the moment, I am leaning towards either dropping the randomizing or raising the limits especially as the Chinese 'infantry' are treated as an endless supply of fodder.[:D]

Personally, I would switch from 1-30% TOE variation to 10-30% TOE variation for the Chinese infantry.

What about the engineers squads? I do not see them in the respawning units already discussed.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Of the two options Michael mentioned, I'd vote for dropping the randomization.

However, I like 10% - 30% better.

Too high and definitely could see shatter units intentionally being wiped out which seems a little odd. I can see defending against bad odds, but "you all charge across that river so I can go back to Chungking and drum up more volunteers" seems odd.
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Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks
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Lokasenna
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Of the two options Michael mentioned, I'd vote for dropping the randomization.

However, I like 10% - 30% better.

Too high and definitely could see shatter units intentionally being wiped out which seems a little odd. I can see defending against bad odds, but "you all charge across that river so I can go back to Chungking and drum up more volunteers" seems odd.

I think it should be what the manual says it is - which is 1/3.

1/3 of whatever they were at death makes sense also.
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by FeurerKrieg »

Yea, I'm just going with what michael offered as options. I will say 1/3 at death means eventually it will be 1/3 of zero if the units get killed off a couple times. That doesn't seem like the intent of respawn.
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michaelm75au
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

At the moment, I am leaning towards either dropping the randomizing or raising the limits especially as the Chinese 'infantry' are treated as an endless supply of fodder.[:D]

Has it always been random? I haven't been paying attention to them - I always just figured "Oh, that unit died, it will respawn" and never bothered looking at the sizes.
Originally it was 1/3 of TOE regardless of type of device or even type of unit for the Chinese. This was not the intent or what the manual infers. What the intent was that the INFANTRY (as being in somewhat abundant supply) could re-spawn. As infantry are squad devices, these are the ones that can spawn. Note engineers are not squads, but there own device type.
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Yaab
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Yaab »

Like Bullwinkle58, I have always assumed that the destroyed units arrive at 30% TOE and I got this notion from reading the manual. Thus, in my games, units on the frontlines which were at less than 30% TOE were expendable and performed many "land kamikaze" missions in China or went behind the enemy lines on partisan cat-and-mouse chases.

The respawn issue really affects Allied strategy in China, because the Chinese inf squad production can be insufficient once too many units are destroyed, and the units arrive at random 1-30% TOE instead of 30% TOE.
Alfred
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Alfred »

Respawn Chinese infantry squads at a fixed 1/3 of TOE.  That is what was always intended.
 
It is not gamey to have a Chinese infantry unit, at say 1/10 of TOE, destroyed and come back "stronger".
 
1.  The div/corps returns without any "heavy equipment" so it actually returns at less than 1/3 TOE anyway.
 
2.  The Chinese problem, shared with many other WWII militaries, was not in raising new units, but in maintaining existing units at TOE.
 
3.  Lack of supply abstractly deals well with the problem of maintaining combat effective units.  Lack of supply should not be a hindrance to merely tapping into the peasant hordes.  As it is the lack of supply makes it very difficult to go above 1/3 TOE once the unit returns and that in turn reduces the historical capacity which confronted the Japanese (and helps considerably the ahistorical 1942 Japanese offensives).
 
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by rroberson »

ORIGINAL: Xargun

This is important to me as well.. My opponent throws his depleted chinese units across rivers and into my units counting on my units to destroy them and he gets a free rebuilt unit containing more squads than it had before. Seems a bit fishy to me - allows the chinese (allied) player to throw his units away, knowing he'll get it back in a stronger condition.



Actually I throw units across rivers and roads and into your units .....wait for it....TOO SLOW YOU DOWN!. I'm trading victory points for time.

I had no idea I got bigger units when they rebuilt. Even still my strategy would remain the same. It does entertain me that the Japanese complain about this though, given their blitzkrieg through china was hardly close to reality on the ground :P
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FeurerKrieg
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by FeurerKrieg »

If us JFB's complaining entertains you then this must be your favorite place!! [:D]
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Lokasenna
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RE: Chinese LCU Respwan

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: Xargun

This is important to me as well.. My opponent throws his depleted chinese units across rivers and into my units counting on my units to destroy them and he gets a free rebuilt unit containing more squads than it had before. Seems a bit fishy to me - allows the chinese (allied) player to throw his units away, knowing he'll get it back in a stronger condition.



Actually I throw units across rivers and roads and into your units .....wait for it....TOO SLOW YOU DOWN!. I'm trading victory points for time.

I had no idea I got bigger units when they rebuilt. Even still my strategy would remain the same. It does entertain me that the Japanese complain about this though, given their blitzkrieg through china was hardly close to reality on the ground :P

My complaint is that there weren't enough respawning Chinese, I need more VPs for killing them a second time!
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