My Suggestion compared with a Chinese PC game

[zgxzz]

I am Chinese and my English is not very good,I try to say,I've played many many many PC games base on world war 2,Western games,Japanese games,Russian games and my Chinese games.
I feel that Japanese games and Chinese games pay very attention to detail.several Chinese games even accurate the troops,the weapons and the casualties to one person one rifle one wounded and one dead,I mean for example in a Chinese game based on Anti-Japanese War, when I finish one battle,I may get this result:enemy dead 1326men captured 1532men captured 567 rifles,77 mortars,17 light tanks,8 medium tanks,32 artillery,AA guns,horses.....and the captured weapons can be our own use for the following battles.
Another Chinese game based on Korean war,equipment types even more and much detailed.it contains over 100 historical real weapons used in Korean war from land,air to navy,from all kinds of helmet,FieldCombatShoes,medicine,mine,rifle,machine guns ,armed Vehicles even the USA have atomic bomb.
All that I mean,if this game,Heroes of Stalingrad,can make the number of the troops more accurately,such as 10men,100men,but not only 1men 1team,shaken and die,I mean we can think 4men was shaken and 6men can still fire or 3men dead 4men shaken and 3men alive and fire.
and,if we can capture enemy abandoned tanks for own use,such as,the hero or leader or crew,can drive those abandoned tanks.
and,the campaign points is not very useful because only 3 units can be upgrade and after several battles,units can not be upgrade any more....I left over 200+points no use...


Reply:
No,guys,I did not refer to games like WitP or Close Combat,the two games I said,are all turn-based SLG games and they are,I think ,is easier than Heroes of Stalingrad when playing.I do not like complicated games either,I do not like to play games which complicated as Wite,so these 2 Chinese wargames are complicated in their design but very easy in playing.Just like Heroes of Stalingrad,you almost just to tell your troops to move and to shoot at the enemy is all your work,nothing complicated things you need to worry.
here I can not upload more than 1 picture ,so I find some pictures of the two games which I said and put them in my album,you can see them here.I just want Heroes of Stalingrad to make some prove to be more interesting.

here is the pictures

1.the game based on Korean war: (this game is over 15 years old,so the pictures may not very beautiful,but today it still in my pc,I played it more than 10 times in the past 15 years.)


(I was told by system that I can not put links here for 7 days,so I cut off the "h t t p : //" before every picture link,you may add it yourself,sorry.)

the first photo,you can see,this is me,I create my self in the game as a division commander,choose my unit type as special forces.
you can see my special forces now has 410 men,0 wounded morale 100,0 fatigue strength,experience 93, 10 unit of ammo.On the right are my special skills and
tactics.below are my unit's equipment,there are Steel Helmet,apple(can reduce fatigue strength ) ,hand grenade,captured M-37 and Bazooka,type93 heavy machine gun,81mm mortar and horse,next 4 are anti-infantry mines and anti-tank mines.The last 4 equipment were in red color indicate that my experience gained was not enough to use them now.By the way,type93 heavy machine gun,even now I can not use it yet,I steal it from my AI controlled friendly force and instead I threw an rifle to them to fight...how bad man I am...

img1.ph.126.net/WIy7nnvckwTTlySTNmT_fg==/2852467414086323425.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/1zyoMisx5vsmdeSdoXxFjA==/2987012452953606439.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/8oGUw7t3W8_FOLg4NGMrWw==/6599316068912309033.jpg
img0.ph.126.net/_XK_n9RO_pcQT-XDKrmn5g==/2873859512316061059.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/a1TSqjOmNHTFnfzSFIx7Mg==/850335904743053647.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/6szipZkG0uICGxzYxeKoTQ==/843580505302028180.jpg
img0.ph.126.net/Qg1DpDUnRwxUM_EBasH05A==/4844465824267373661.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/YqHu1-tcelF9-2EAEEMDFQ==/3189392961208602827.jpg

2.the game based on Anti-Japanese War: (also a many years ago game in my pc now too.)

img2.ph.126.net/6f_aJYXPLSpyw8THuatlgA==/57139420372853123.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/hzLkiQDMG51It-lpMAAqZQ==/1846194372345381289.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/KAlWqx6OPczVf7j4BtMSHQ==/1821424574394812408.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/1MlTXH-RskPcSo-526p_EA==/3761913063838048307.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/AowXuIHP_eClMVmDHFRqiQ==/1846194372345381302.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/FOjBSGMZU45W1C4EaZr7DA==/4947204190766681173.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/zwX0Ka7eODjZ9KxnbCIq0g==/779122735635253970.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/pjK-9ca8vzwwUGsZ5Lchsw==/832602981210525367.png
img1.ph.126.net/WyC4nQyrW_kOek8Vg26fQA==/3761913063838048303.jpg


So,watch these pictures,do they like a complicated detailed simulation game? N,they are all like board games,but who said a board game can not be detailed in accurately how many soldiers and weapons you have or what kind of weapons they use?they just Complicated
in design but to the players,they are true easy board games.

so my suggestion,can we capture enemy weapons such as abandoned tanks for our own use and bring them to next battle?
can the soldiers gain experience from battle and become more effective?
can our troops be made as 10 or 15 strength as the <panzer general2/3>?not only the whole unit shaken and die,but they have 10-15 strength,when strength 0,unit die.
can we get more weapon except MG-34...such as Kar98K,mp40,ppsh41,hand grenade,mp44,FG42...
can we get some good weapons as reward from the headquarters when we finish a decisive victory?

[zgxzz]

Replenish my word,these Chinese games all have Experience system,troops get Experience form battle and become more effective,in that game based on Anti-Japanese War,new recruits act not very effective but old experienced soldiers can do more tactics such as hide,ambush,assault,.....in another Chinese game based on Korean war,experienced soldiers can build field fortification,mine,mine hunting,new recruits infantry can only use Japanese Type38 rifle and hand grenade but with their experience grow,they can be equiped with more effective weapons such as PPsh-41 machine guns over 30 types of historical infantry weapons.When their exp. reach a certain level,they can use captured USA weapons.
So,would Heroes of Stalingrad create such experience system?I think it would be more interesting.

[markhwalker]

ZGXZZ,

I appreciate that you took the time to write those posts. HoS is just not that type of game. To be honest, that type of game just doesn't interest me. That isn't meant to marginalize your statement. Many folks love that type of detail. I'm just not one of them.

[tyrion22]

ORIGINAL: zgxzz



I am Chinese and my English is not very good,I try to say,I've played many many many PC games base on world war 2,Western games,Japanese games,Russian games and my Chinese games.
I feel that Japanese games and Chinese games pay very attention to detail.several Chinese games even accurate the troops,the weapons and the casualties to one person one rifle one wounded and one dead,I mean for example in a Chinese game based on Anti-Japanese War, when I finish one battle,I may get this result:enemy dead 1326men captured 1532men captured 567 rifles,77 mortars,17 light tanks,8 medium tanks,32 artillery,AA guns,horses.....and the captured weapons can be our own use for the following battles.
Another Chinese game based on Korean war,equipment types even more and much detailed.it contains over 100 historical real weapons used in Korean war from land,air to navy,from all kinds of helmet,FieldCombatShoes,medicine,mine,rifle,machine guns ,armed Vehicles even the USA have atomic bomb.
All that I mean,if this game,Heroes of Stalingrad,can make the number of the troops more accurately,such as 10men,100men,but not only 1men 1team,shaken and die,I mean we can think 4men was shaken and 6men can still fire or 3men dead 4men shaken and 3men alive and fire.
and,if we can capture enemy abandoned tanks for own use,such as,the hero or leader or crew,can drive those abandoned tanks.
and,the campaign points is not very useful because only 3 units can be upgrade and after several battles,units can not be upgrade any more....I left over 200+points no use...

You're describing a completely different game, and one that could never be realized as a board game. Some of us prefer board games and computer games that look or play like board games. One of the reasons is that they are more transparent: You know exactly what the rules are. Even many of the games I play that are made only for computers/tablets are like this. Some examples are Battle of the Bulge for iPad and Unity of Command for PC. If I want to play a more detailed simulation, there are many alternatives, but most of the time I would rather play a game with transparent rules. In my experience, those detailed simulations aren't more realistic anyway, so I will rather play I game I can understand.

[danlongman]

Well I like Chinese food, why wouldn't I like Chinese games?
I think zgxzz (sounds Croation not Chinese) is referring to games like WitP or even Close Combat.

[HobbesACW]

I've always wondered if the Chinese or Japanese make PC wargames that have not been translated into English? I've never seen one - any link that you can provide?

I'm enjoying this game as it is a translation of a boardgame rather than a simulation and I find that quite refreshing.
There is a voice in the back of my head that says this or that could be modeled more realistically but then you can go on for ever with that -
with ever more complex rules. It is a boardgame and a lot of fun to play (also enjoying some feelings of nostalgia).

Cheers,
Chris

[zgxzz]

No,guys,I did not refer to games like WitP or Close Combat,the two games I said,are all turn-based SLG games and they are,I think ,is easier than Heroes of Stalingrad when playing.I do not like complicated games either,I do not like to play games which complicated as Wite,so these 2 Chinese wargames are complicated in their design but very easy in playing.Just like Heroes of Stalingrad,you almost just to tell your troops to move and to shoot at the enemy is all your work,nothing complicated things you need to worry.
here I can not upload more than 1 picture ,so I find some pictures of the two games which I said and put them in my album,you can see them here.I just want Heroes of Stalingrad to make some prove to be more interesting.

here is the pictures

1.the game based on Korean war: (this game is over 15 years old,so the pictures may not very beautiful,but today it still in my pc,I played it more than 10 times in the past 15 years.)


(I was told by system that I can not put links here for 7 days,so I cut off the "h t t p : //" before every picture link,you may add it yourself,sorry.)

img1.ph.126.net/q4_U9aZ_q7caVpC_MTduvg==/2178334844863925044.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/6szipZkG0uICGxzYxeKoTQ==/843580505302028180.jpg
img0.ph.126.net/Qg1DpDUnRwxUM_EBasH05A==/4844465824267373661.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/YqHu1-tcelF9-2EAEEMDFQ==/3189392961208602827.jpg

2.the game based on Anti-Japanese War: (also a many years ago game in my pc now too.)

img2.ph.126.net/6f_aJYXPLSpyw8THuatlgA==/57139420372853123.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/hzLkiQDMG51It-lpMAAqZQ==/1846194372345381289.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/KAlWqx6OPczVf7j4BtMSHQ==/1821424574394812408.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/1MlTXH-RskPcSo-526p_EA==/3761913063838048307.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/AowXuIHP_eClMVmDHFRqiQ==/1846194372345381302.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/FOjBSGMZU45W1C4EaZr7DA==/4947204190766681173.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/zwX0Ka7eODjZ9KxnbCIq0g==/779122735635253970.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/pjK-9ca8vzwwUGsZ5Lchsw==/832602981210525367.png
img1.ph.126.net/WyC4nQyrW_kOek8Vg26fQA==/3761913063838048303.jpg


So,watch these pictures,do they like a complicated detailed simulation game? N,they are all like board games,but who said a board game can not be detailed in accurately how many soldiers and weapons you have or what kind of weapons they use?they just Complicated
in design but to the players,they are true easy board games.

so my suggestion,can we capture enemy weapons such as abandoned tanks for our own use and bring them to next battle?
can the soldiers gain experience from battle and become more effective?
can our troops be made as 10 or 15 strength as the <panzer general2/3>?not only the whole unit shaken and die,but they have 10-15 strength,when strength 0,unit die.
can we get more weapon except MG-34...such as Kar98K,mp40,ppsh41,hand grenade,mp44,FG42...
can we get some good weapons as reward from the headquarters when we finish a decisive victory?

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

ZGXZZ,

I appreciate that you took the time to write those posts. HoS is just not that type of game. To be honest, that type of game just doesn't interest me. That isn't meant to marginalize your statement. Many folks love that type of detail. I'm just not one of them.

Hurray, good for you Mark. I love how you think and design. Keep it simple and throw out the details.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: zgxzz

No,guys,I did not refer to games like WitP or Close Combat,the two games I said,are all turn-based SLG games and they are,I think ,is easier than Heroes of Stalingrad when playing......
here is the pictures

1.the game based on Korean war: (this game is over 15 years old,so the pictures may not very beautiful,but today it still in my pc,I played it more than 10 times in the past 15 years.)


(I was told by system that I can not put links here for 7 days,so I cut off the "h t t p : //" before every picture link,you may add it yourself,sorry.)

....

Thanks for posting the images. From what I have read here, it doesn't look like Mark will incorporate those kind of details into this game, bu it looks to me like you might enjoy some of the games here on Matrix, so I hope you take the time to look at the rest of the games here.

thanks
rick

[HobbesACW]

I looked at one image but then got a virus threat detected from Avast. Is this just due to the website location?
Thanks for posting though - very interesting. I've not played the campaign game yet so can't comment on your ideas but they seem
pretty reasonable.

Cheers,
Chris

[zgxzz]

ORIGINAL: hobbes

I looked at one image but then got a virus threat detected from Avast. Is this just due to the website location?
Thanks for posting though - very interesting. I've not played the campaign game yet so can't comment on your ideas but they seem
pretty reasonable.

Cheers,
Chris

Virus threat??Is this a joke...?....It can not be possible,this Chinese website has over 0.3 billion users in China that be equal to the population in the US&#65292;never heard of virus threat....maybe western governments do not like their people to hear the voice from the eastern world so their Avast companies intercept Chinese websites and tell you there are virus threat...otherwise I do not know why......just the opposite,Chinese get emails everyday which written in English and most in German,non in Chinese.These including sex or other what I never open them,I averagely receive over 5 such emails per day while most of other these rubbish emails were intercept by system.I don't know why these most in German,do you know?I like Germany before...and some western web do not allow me to login and told some what meaning my country was not allowed to login on their web...interesting...I wonder do they know China has over 0.633 billion internet users and 0.52 billion Mobile Internet users which over the whole population of the USA + Europe.As a businessman,I feel pity for the western companies to lose such large market. I hate such cold war on web,why those politicians can never stay and live peacefully....what we need is to know eachother but not exclusion.But now,neither western governments nor Chinese government do well in this.It is a potential dangerous.

[zgxzz]

on the other hand of Heroes of Stalingrad what I think could be discussed is melee.
you have enough more power to melee,you win with almost no lost and the enemies all die.Is that OK....?China has a archaism,in English,means in a victory,if you Hurt one thousand enemies may yourself army have eight hundred losses.
So,in the Chinese game based on Korean war,you also have to melee sometime,because the ammo may usually not enough especially when a infantry unit fire with automatic weapon several times.So if the condition is allowed I usually equip my infantry unit with rifle,automatic weapon,mine,hand grenade and mortars in the meantime for different situations.But when still lack of ammo and your unit had throw it's last hand grenade and you can not get supply in time,your unit have to melee,but even your unit's morale very high,you can not get 0 loss in melee combat.even your unit have 10,000 men to melee 100 men,you may get 66men,83men,205men...lost depends on the situation.and melee combat shaken both of the two sides much and unit'fatigue will increase high.
I do not think this designs are very complicated to a board game,after all,the game based on computer but not really on board,isn't it?In most of the Heroes of Stalingrad battles with hard difficulty,I can hardly die one men during the
whole battle while the enemies all eliminated...it is not real but too romantic I think...I hope it can be redesigned on casualties.

all what I mean,I like this game and I hope it can be more interesting,just so.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: zgxzz

ORIGINAL: hobbes

I looked at one image but then got a virus threat detected from Avast. Is this just due to the website location?
Thanks for posting though - very interesting. I've not played the campaign game yet so can't comment on your ideas but they seem
pretty reasonable.

Cheers,
Chris

Virus threat??Is this a joke...?....It can not be possible,....

Actually the first link just gave me an error (no virus warning - just an error), but it's not uncommon for virus software to interpret any unexpected occurrence as a possible virus. But the other links worked fine. I could see the images and found them interesting, though I couldn't read the data - my chinese language skills are not just poor, they are non-existent, but it was interesting to see the images and to realize that there is a commonality to how these games are done, regardless of the language.

Thanks
Rick

[HobbesACW]

I tried a different image and it was fine.

Cheers,
Chris

[Hexagon]

I need say that both games remember me a lot a pair of old games...

"Steel Panthers" the Korea title and "Blitzkrieg" the sino-japanese war.

LnL is a total diferent game in scope and work, the detailed game you want is out of LnL, in the end is a table game move to PC, i prefer to see details but i can deal with the level of abstraction.

Curious games, i never see them... i think that the language wall prevent us see other aproximations to wargame world... and i need say is refreshing the war covered in the 2nd title, i think the only game that cover it is... "Strategic command" one of them but in a global map and sure there are scens for TOAW.

I dont have problems with images, maybe next time zgxzz you can use the image feature in forum to add them in the post.

[zgxzz]

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

I need say that both games remember me a lot a pair of old games...

"Steel Panthers" the Korea title and "Blitzkrieg" the sino-japanese war.

LnL is a total diferent game in scope and work, the detailed game you want is out of LnL, in the end is a table game move to PC, i prefer to see details but i can deal with the level of abstraction.

Curious games, i never see them... i think that the language wall prevent us see other aproximations to wargame world... and i need say is refreshing the war covered in the 2nd title, i think the only game that cover it is... "Strategic command" one of them but in a global map and sure there are scens for TOAW.

I dont have problems with images, maybe next time zgxzz you can use the image feature in forum to add them in the post.

“Steel Panthers”&#65292;I have played before,but it not like the first Chinese game I mentioned at all and if let me give a mark of the two games if that Chinese game score10,“Steel Panthers”may just score 4. To the second Chinese game,"Blitzkrieg"and "suddenstrike" obviously not the same kind of game.they are Real-Time Strategy,but,these two Chinese games I call them computer-based easy-detailed board game,my computer was full of war games that I have played maybe over 60-70 war games from different countries,there are many many war games that westerners may never heard of,but it is hard to find a war game that I've never played or heard.I am a fan of war games.Even the oldest classics game"Operation Europe&#65306;Path to Victory 1939-45"which made by Japanese in 1994 size maybe only 2MB that I've played for a long time. But I never seen other western games have those interesting elements like these two Chinese games. I call them the classics with another western game"panzergeneral2/3".these 3/4 games I may never forgot.(panzergeneral2/3 I've played maybe over 30 times,very classics with it's mods )
I take some new photos with the first Chinese game based on Korean war on my own computer.

img1.ph.126.net/WIy7nnvckwTTlySTNmT_fg==/2852467414086323425.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/1zyoMisx5vsmdeSdoXxFjA==/2987012452953606439.jpg
img2.ph.126.net/8oGUw7t3W8_FOLg4NGMrWw==/6599316068912309033.jpg
img0.ph.126.net/_XK_n9RO_pcQT-XDKrmn5g==/2873859512316061059.jpg
img1.ph.126.net/a1TSqjOmNHTFnfzSFIx7Mg==/850335904743053647.jpg

the first photo,you can see,this is me,I create my self in the game as a division commander,choose my unit type as special forces.
you can see my special forces now has 410 men,0 wounded morale 100,0 fatigue strength,experience 93, 10 unit of ammo.On the right are my special skills and
tactics.below are my unit's equipment,there are Steel Helmet,apple(can reduce fatigue strength ) ,hand grenade,captured M-37 and Bazooka,type93 heavy machine gun,81mm mortar and horse,next 4 are anti-infantry mines and anti-tank mines.The last 4 equipment were in red color indicate that my experience gained was not enough to use them now.By the way,type93 heavy machine gun,even now I can not use it yet,I steal it from my AI controlled friendly force and instead I threw an rifle to them to fight...how bad man I am...

[Skanvak]

I have look at the game, and like I said somewhere else. The present game is a translation of a boardgame. So the rule must be the same as the boardgame. Any suggestion to change the rule should keep this in mind (even if some things really bug me in LnL).

So I don't think that this is a difference between Western and Chinese game. But the very aim of the game is not the same. In a boardgame style rules you need to keep all information manageable by a human so you must use fewer details than a fullk fledge computer game.

After, I find you hard with Steel Panther. It is very details and more details might be too much details.

[zgxzz]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

I have look at the game, and like I said somewhere else. The present game is a translation of a boardgame. So the rule must be the same as the boardgame. Any suggestion to change the rule should keep this in mind (even if some things really bug me in LnL).

So I don't think that this is a difference between Western and Chinese game. But the very aim of the game is not the same. In a boardgame style rules you need to keep all information manageable by a human so you must use fewer details than a fullk fledge computer game.

After, I find you hard with Steel Panther. It is very details and more details might be too much details.

I understand.But I wonder, since we've already move this game from board to computer,why must 100% the rules on board,those rules are easy because of restriction,in the meantime,so easy a game might be less interesting,otherwise,why we need computer.but it is now already computer,why not add some interesting improvement but still must so easy that even we can move it back again from computer to board?If we add some interesting improvement to it but still very very easy to play just like the 2 Chinese games,why not?after all,we have already seat in front of computer but not a board.those 2 Chinese games even my 10 years old relative child can play it very well...not hard to play at all...those detail's purpose is not to be complexity but to be more interesting.For a
simple example:since we play this game on computer,don't players want to see their troops equipt with Kar98K or mp40 instead of"FIRE POWER 1"and"FIRE POWER 2"??still that opinion,if a game can be still very easy to play and we already moved it to PC,why must still stay on basic board level?

[Skanvak]

if a game can be still very easy to play and we already moved it to PC,why must still stay on basic board level?

Yes, because it is a way to learn or practice the boardgame on the computer. That is their added value. If you cannot pass from the boargame to computer game and vis et versa then they won't be that interesting compared to other computer game that exist (like battlefield academy or Steel panther or Panzer Campaign).

I really think that LnL:HoS will not be interesting if the rules were far from the boardgame rules. For me it really helop me understand how the boardgame was intended to be played and allow me to practice the boardgame as I have few opponnent. Without that, it would have no added value compared to a battlefield Academy (which is still very simple).

[tyrion22]

ORIGINAL: zgxzz
I understand.But I wonder, since we've already move this game from board to computer,why must 100% the rules on board,those rules are easy because of restriction,in the meantime,so easy a game might be less interesting,otherwise,why we need computer.but it is now already computer,why not add some interesting improvement but still must so easy that even we can move it back again from computer to board?If we add some interesting improvement to it but still very very easy to play just like the 2 Chinese games,why not?after all,we have already seat in front of computer but not a board.those 2 Chinese games even my 10 years old relative child can play it very well...not hard to play at all...those detail's purpose is not to be complexity but to be more interesting.For a
simple example:since we play this game on computer,don't players want to see their troops equipt with Kar98K or mp40 instead of"FIRE POWER 1"and"FIRE POWER 2"??still that opinion,if a game can be still very easy to play and we already moved it to PC,why must still stay on basic board level?

Not trying to be rude, but this discussion is completely unrealistic. Suggesting tweaks is one thing (for instance, some people want heroes to be a little less common), but you're talking about a complete redesign. People who play Lock'n Load want to play Lock'n Load. Besides, I don't think the game you're talking about is an improvement at all. Apples reduce fatigue? Sounds like an RPG, not a wargame. And counting number of soldiers will probable feel like counting hit points, unless each soldier is simulated with mental state etc. In effect, this would mean each soldier is its own counter, that can be shaken or not. I don't see how this is an improvement, even if you could do it in a computer game. You have so many units (each soldier is a unit), you just end up getting average results all the time: Some soldiers are killed, some are shaken.