My Stand for Forum Freedom

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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WarHunter
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My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by WarHunter »

The forums for MWiF are in need of a new Standard Operating Procedure.

Whatever was considered norm for testing and reporting needs to be scraped. It worked when the game was not released to the public. It is not working for me since release in NOV. It may not be working for others.
My answer to this.

Have all the Beta testers share the problems they are having with the public. Let us in on the discussions and fixes being attempted. Make us a part of the solution and not a problem to be gently ignored when we start to be obnoxious about getting something looked at.

To be part of a team means everyone contributes.

As long as there is a forum where only a few select people are allowed. Conflict will simmer.
Merge all the forums.
Make all posts known to all. Hell, create a wiki dump for all info related to MWiF.

We are coming up to a 4 month since release and no NetPlay. I did not spend over $200.00 to play against myself.

All i ask for is that problems be known to everyone. So those of us who paid money, don't have to play the game and find the same problems already being discussed in a private forum.

If they are already known. Let us all help find the answer. Let us in on the work around, instead of finding one for ourselves.

Once upon a time as a Team/Squad leader i took to heart a need to know my men and myself. This was after BNCOC. We would all gather round and share our expectations of each other and the army. Nothing was off the table. After a couple months we were comfortable enough with each other to discuss and not be offended by "frank and open discussion" about anything. It took time and it took open minded patience with closed minded individuals.

I do not hold any grudge against anyone in this forum. You are all good wargamer people unless proved otherwise. This post is meant to breed discussion not abort it.

I am making my stand public.

You have a choice. Take the Blue pill or the Red pill.

One question that has been bothering me.
Is the Non-Dislosure document an impediment to open and frank discussion? If yes, make some changes so info can be shared.
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AxelNL
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by AxelNL »

The NDA is indeed a blockade to your solution. Some of us have already been very close to the border or even over it (for the good cause), and I think that includes me.

What I think you propose is to go into the world of public Beta releases. By making them public everybody can decide if he wants to try the latest release, or not. To make things maybe even a bit more efficient for Steve it could look like:

1. Latest normal release, which can be downloaded by the auto-updater
2. Current Beta release - on test for say 3 weeks before moving in category 1
3. Newest Alpha release - being worked on by Steve. Going into category 2 only after enough votes in favor.

I think this would work fine for ironing out the bugs in the solitaire version. Probably not for the AI, as that functionality will be gradually built and needs unit test first. But let's first focus on get the basis working fluently - as any serious bug in solitair will wreck havoc in Netplay and AI.

I would be in favor for change - good thinking here.
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Centuur
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

The NDA is indeed a blockade to your solution. Some of us have already been very close to the border or even over it (for the good cause), and I think that includes me.

What I think you propose is to go into the world of public Beta releases. By making them public everybody can decide if he wants to try the latest release, or not. To make things maybe even a bit more efficient for Steve it could look like:

1. Latest normal release, which can be downloaded by the auto-updater
2. Current Beta release - on test for say 3 weeks before moving in category 1
3. Newest Alpha release - being worked on by Steve. Going into category 2 only after enough votes in favor.

I think this would work fine for ironing out the bugs in the solitaire version. Probably not for the AI, as that functionality will be gradually built and needs unit test first. But let's first focus on get the basis working fluently - as any serious bug in solitair will wreck havoc in Netplay and AI.

I would be in favor for change - good thinking here.

+ 1. Only it isn't our call. It's Matrix who has to decide.

And on work arounds: if a bug is reported here, I think I can honestly say that we share a work around on the general forums if it exists or is discovered by a beta tester when investigating it.
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bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by bo »


[quote]ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The forums for MWiF are in need of a new Standard Operating Procedure.

Whatever was considered norm for testing and reporting needs to be scraped. It worked when the game was not released to the public. It is not working for me since release in NOV. It may not be working for others.
My answer to this.

Have all the Beta testers share the problems they are having with the public. Let us in on the discussions and fixes being attempted. Make us a part of the solution and not a problem to be gently ignored when we start to be obnoxious about getting something looked at.

To be part of a team means everyone contributes.

As long as there is a forum where only a few select people are allowed. Conflict will simmer.
Merge all the forums.
Make all posts known to all. Hell, create a wiki dump for all info related to MWiF.

We are coming up to a 4 month since release and no NetPlay. I did not spend over $200.00 to play against myself.

All i ask for is that problems be known to everyone. So those of us who paid money, don't have to play the game and find the same problems already being discussed in a private forum.

If they are already known. Let us all help find the answer. Let us in on the work around, instead of finding one for ourselves.

Once upon a time as a Team/Squad leader i took to heart a need to know my men and myself. This was after BNCOC. We would all gather round and share our expectations of each other and the army. Nothing was off the table. After a couple months we were comfortable enough with each other to discuss and not be offended by "frank and open discussion" about anything. It took time and it took open minded patience with closed minded individuals.

I do not hold any grudge against anyone in this forum. You are all good wargamer people unless proved otherwise. This post is meant to breed discussion not abort it.

I am making my stand public.

You have a choice. Take the Blue pill or the Red pill.

One question that has been bothering me.
Is the Non-Dislosure document an impediment to open and frank discussion? If yes, make some changes so info can be shared.
[/quot



Well said Warhunter,[;)] I have to look at my NDS and see if I am allowed to agree with you [:(]

Bo
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michaelbaldur
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by michaelbaldur »



deleted my original post.

this is really a thread for the closed forum

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
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LiquidSky
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by LiquidSky »

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur



deleted my original post.

this is really a thread for the closed forum



[:D] Which demonstrates the problem right there
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur



deleted my original post.

this is really a thread for the closed forum



[:D] Which demonstrates the problem right there

How true Liquid, we are all frustrated as is Steve, I believe in an open forum. Not our call though.

Bo
Extraneous
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Extraneous »

I have no problem with waiting for the NDA to expire.

Sooner or later it will happen.
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I have no problem with waiting for the NDA to expire.

Sooner or later it will happen.

Hi Ex

Could you explain to me what you mean by expire, is there a time frame for NDA?
I wish it would expire. Tell you the truth I have no idea what I signed, never even read it. I just wanted to do beta testing for MWIF.

I would have signed with the devil and probably did [:D]

Bo
Extraneous
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Extraneous »

This is not considered confidential information since it was distributed to anyone who applied for the beta at that time.
ORIGINAL: Beta-NDA-2011-PFE-11.pdf

Tester agrees to report to Publisher any flaws he or she discovers in the Game, up until nine (9) months after the date of the first commercial sale of the Game. Tester understands that prompt and accurate reports are of great value to Publisher and promises best efforts to provide such reports. During the Beta Test period tester shall provide to Publisher evaluation reports of the Product, including both positive and negative aspects. These reports dates will be provided by the Publisher Beta Test Manager.
University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
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WarHunter
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by WarHunter »

Thank you for responding to my humble post. I do hope the conversation in the Private Beta Forum is lively and constructive. If the NDA is the biggest stumbling block to share info more quickly. At least i know in 5 months it will fade away. Will we have NetPlay working before then? No crystal ball here.

AxelNL Centuur bo michaelbaldur LiquidSky Extraneous

Good Luck
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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Thank you for responding to my humble post. I do hope the conversation in the Private Beta Forum is lively and constructive. If the NDA is the biggest stumbling block to share info more quickly. At least i know in 5 months it will fade away. Will we have NetPlay working before then? No crystal ball here.

AxelNL Centuur bo michaelbaldur LiquidSky Extraneous

Good Luck

Lively and constructive, that is putting it mildly War, it was a little more than lively, I do not like to comment on what others think but I for one would like to see the beta forums be open to all posters now that the game has been out for almost four months.

But as you know that is not our call but it seems to me that some of the problems are talked about out in the open between beta people and the general forum posters. We try to answer questions about the game play and some of the other minor problems that you see.

Good Post War

Bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by pzgndr »

ORIGINAL: WarHunter
You have a choice. Take the Blue pill or the Red pill.

One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that Matrix gives you
Don't do anything at all

Go ask Steve
When he's ten feet tall
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by joshuamnave »

Perhaps surprisingly, I disagree. Given the breadth and scope of the issues still active, I think the beta testers and Steve need a way to communicate with a low signal to noise ratio. And I say this as someone that does not have access to that forum.

In our tech support forum now, there are a lot of bug reports that aren't actually bugs, just rule misunderstandings (including some of mine). There are questions about the game, strategy discussions, etc... There are posts from negative nellys that aren't interested in being constructive, and those invariably devolve into flame wars.

When the game is mostly working as intended and the only issues left are minor lingering bugs, cosmetic issues, and UI improvements, then maybe open up the forum.
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

Perhaps surprisingly, I disagree. Given the breadth and scope of the issues still active, I think the beta testers and Steve need a way to communicate with a low signal to noise ratio. And I say this as someone that does not have access to that forum.

In our tech support forum now, there are a lot of bug reports that aren't actually bugs, just rule misunderstandings (including some of mine). There are questions about the game, strategy discussions, etc... There are posts from negative nellys that aren't interested in being constructive, and those invariably devolve into flame wars.

When the game is mostly working as intended and the only issues left are minor lingering bugs, cosmetic issues, and UI improvements, then maybe open up the forum.

I just posted my feelings about an open forum on the beta forum just now and I have a feeling your opinion will be their opinion for the very issues you bring up. But I feel there is a lot of computer know how people on the main forum that might see something that we missed. [not that in my wildest dreams that could be [:D]]
200 eyes are better than just a few. Hmmm or could be chaotic [:(]

Bo

Bo
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Dabrion »

+1 for structured approach to issue management. set up an issue tracker, let the community help you organise your tasks and priorities..

@NDA: whats the point of an NDA after release? whats the point of an NDA for MWiF in particular?
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by AxelNL »

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

+1 for structured approach to issue management. set up an issue tracker, let the community help you organise your tasks and priorities..

@NDA: whats the point of an NDA after release? whats the point of an NDA for MWiF in particular?

Hi Dabrion,

Thanks for this constructive post. I will try to answer your question.

First of all, Steve uses the beta group to help him set his priorities. Look at us as your representation when we give him advice on that subject matter. Steve tries to spend as much time on programming instead of answering posts, while we as a group have exchanges with almost all posters, forming an opinion on what the community thinks. One of us keeps the issue tracker of posts in the tech forum. Steve has off course the direct influx of MadExcept emails which tells him where blocking problems are. Both are used in that decision taking.

Regarding the NDA after a go-live. I do not know if there is a specific reason related to MWIF, but an NDA is quite normal in commercial development and having a date after go-live as well. As the AI is a separate product I will not be surprised that Matrix will continue with the NDA for those of us helping Steve with the unit test. Interestingly in that respect is that as you can see in the AI threads, the actual intelligence of the AI is for a great deal public(ly formed).

If you feel your representation is not good enough for you, you have as an option to apply for the Beta group as well. I actually will support that if you want this to get where almost all of us want to be: a 100% working game, which grows over time (that was not really visible, but with this post it looks you might). However, it is not up to me who can join.

Regards,

Lex
Extraneous
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


Hi Dabrion,

Thanks for this constructive post. I will try to answer your question.

First of all, Steve uses the beta group to help him set his priorities. Look at us as your representation when we give him advice on that subject matter. Steve tries to spend as much time on programming instead of answering posts, while we as a group have exchanges with almost all posters, forming an opinion on what the community thinks. One of us keeps the issue tracker of posts in the tech forum. Steve has off course the direct influx of MadExcept emails which tells him where blocking problems are. Both are used in that decision taking.

Regarding the NDA after a go-live. I do not know if there is a specific reason related to MWIF, but an NDA is quite normal in commercial development and having a date after go-live as well. As the AI is a separate product I will not be surprised that Matrix will continue with the NDA for those of us helping Steve with the unit test. Interestingly in that respect is that as you can see in the AI threads, the actual intelligence of the AI is for a great deal public(ly formed).

If you feel your representation is not good enough for you, you have as an option to apply for the Beta group as well. I actually will support that if you want this to get where almost all of us want to be: a 100% working game, which grows over time (that was not really visible, but with this post it looks you might). However, it is not up to me who can join.

Regards,

Lex

Since at this time the beta is closed. Joining the beta is a null option.

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
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AxelNL
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by AxelNL »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: AxelNL


Hi Dabrion,

Thanks for this constructive post. I will try to answer your question.

First of all, Steve uses the beta group to help him set his priorities. Look at us as your representation when we give him advice on that subject matter. Steve tries to spend as much time on programming instead of answering posts, while we as a group have exchanges with almost all posters, forming an opinion on what the community thinks. One of us keeps the issue tracker of posts in the tech forum. Steve has off course the direct influx of MadExcept emails which tells him where blocking problems are. Both are used in that decision taking.

Regarding the NDA after a go-live. I do not know if there is a specific reason related to MWIF, but an NDA is quite normal in commercial development and having a date after go-live as well. As the AI is a separate product I will not be surprised that Matrix will continue with the NDA for those of us helping Steve with the unit test. Interestingly in that respect is that as you can see in the AI threads, the actual intelligence of the AI is for a great deal public(ly formed).

If you feel your representation is not good enough for you, you have as an option to apply for the Beta group as well. I actually will support that if you want this to get where almost all of us want to be: a 100% working game, which grows over time (that was not really visible, but with this post it looks you might). However, it is not up to me who can join.

Regards,

Lex

Since at this time the beta is closed. Joining the beta is a null option.


If you never shoot, you will never hit. If you offer to test Netplay extensively you will probably have a +1 on the die roll.
But technically you are right - there is no call for extra testers. That sentence was more used to introduce and support my reasoning in the second sentence.
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Dabrion
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RE: My Stand for Forum Freedom

Post by Dabrion »

Taking part in a suboptimal testing process is not what I payed for... nice try, though!

As for you representing me or anyone outside the "beta group", what do I know.. This is a completely opaque process with zero feedback. I personally stopped reporting after I saw that my input was not commented and acknowledged and I had no means to track its way through "the system" (given there is one).
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
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