New official look of maps - in the future?

[MikeAP]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

need to make sure this is worth the additional time at this point or better for a go forward effort and back tracking when we can. So let us know what you think.

I think that if you're going to continue to sell the game, then this should be a deliberate effort.

I also think you guys should contract a professional artist for future expansions. That's not a knock on all of your hard work with HexDraw, but I think the maps are in a particular poor state. This is especially since it is literally the first thing a potential customer will see of your game.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Sabre21, check here on what a few folks are doing. tm.asp?m=3527541

Thanks, that's a good start from what I'm seeing there.

[CapnDarwin]

I think a lot of the map issue is going to be settled by how the team decides to go forward. Better looking but less visually functional maps will require a new custom tile base map editor. That will cost us 3-6 months of time against expansions and 2.1 getting done. It is a bit of a complex issue, but one we are actively working. We will keep you all in the loop.

[budd]

I don't use the stock maps at all. I use plodder,jamm,nick and W1ll14m maps for any scenarios i play.Thanks again for the modded maps guys.
I'd like to see how their maps look with that 3d thing[:D]

As a side note, i'd rather see content produced then the time spent on maps. Can't you guys hook up with one of these talented modders?

[MikeAP]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Better looking but less visually functional maps.

Where does the sacrifice come in? A well designed map will easily offer both.

Better looking == more visually functional.

[CapnDarwin]

MikeAP, the sacrifice is time. For every one hand drawn map (assuming we had in-house capability to make one) we can make 10 fully functional maps like we have now. That allows us to cover more battles in more areas. Now let's look at Budd's point of using Jamm or one of the other moders. They have done a few maps on the graphic side only, not values. As you can see it takes a fair amount of their time to make one. Let alone thirty or more. We would like to improve the look of the game and the maps, but we have to do it a way that doesn't impact the work we need to do on the game itself. I am a big proponent of going to a tile based system with better art (done by graphics artist too) that still keeps the functionality of the current system. Our bottom line is a pretty map does not make a better playing game. We have the original Flashpoint Germany as the perfect case of pretty maps being adversely functional. We won't be repeating that mistake. Hopefully, we can find a middle ground as we move forward.

[MikeAP]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

MikeAP, the sacrifice is time.

Maybe I just don't understand...

For a game like this, where players spend 90% of their time looking at the MAP why would you not dedicate your efforts, spend extra cash with an artist, and/or sacrifice the time in order to ensure that you're delivering the best product possible.

We, the players, understand that you want to get new content released quickly. But the foundation has to be in place first, the map.

I would rather play using the one good map than the 10 maps that were thrown together in HexDraw.

That's just me. I don't consider myself a'war gamer', though. I value the look and sound of a game because it adds to the feel and gaming experience.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: MikeAP

Maybe I just don't understand...

Let me help you a little bit here Mike.

For a game like this, where players spend 90% of their time looking at the MAP why would you not dedicate your efforts, spend extra cash with an artist, and/or sacrifice the time in order to ensure that you're delivering the best product possible.

We, the players, understand that you want to get new content released quickly. But the foundation has to be in place first, the map.

This is all hindsight. Nobody knew if this game would make a dime. We did this primarily as a labor of love. And while I do love you wargamers, I really do or you wouldn't be playing this game right now, we did the best we could with the team we had and the resources we had.

If that's not good enough I can't help you.

I would rather play using the one good map than the 10 maps that were thrown together in HexDraw.

That comment has come the closest to pissing me off of any made since we released this game. I hand made every single map in this game except 2. Not a single one of them was 'thrown together'. It takes DAYS to make a map that is auto compiled. It takes DAYS longer if it isn't auto compiled. Now, since this is so easy, I would have expected to see your maps in the mod section. But, being the observant guy that I am, I noticed you haven't made any. That's because making maps that are up to your considerable standards are far from easy to make. In fact, very few people in the world have the skill set and desire to make them for a computer wargame.

So, when you get time to climb down off of that high horse you ride around on, be aware that we did the best that we could and that we are spending considerable time and effort make changes to the maps.

We made a conscious effort to include more functional maps than only a few pretty ones. I would have thought that in your job where you look at Topo maps for a living that our map set would be very functional to you. I never cease to be surprised. You are correct, you are very much in the minority to want a few maps versus many maps.

That's just me. I don't consider myself a'war gamer', though. I value the look and sound of a game because it adds to the feel and gaming experience.

You're not a war gamer but you want a gaming experience. Again, with your job, I would have thought that accurate portrayal of the situation would far outrank looks and sound in a game. Again, I am very surprised.

I'll get over it.

Good Hunting.

MR

[MikeAP]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
That comment has come the closest to pissing me off of any made since we released this game. I hand made every single map in this game except 2. Not a single one of them was 'thrown together'.

My apologies with that comment, and certainly not my intent to piss you off or launch a personal attack at you. I chose my words poorly, and the point is that I and many other players share the same criticism that artistically, the maps are poorly drawn.

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Now, since this is so easy, I would have expected to see your maps in the mod section. But, being the observant guy that I am, I noticed you haven't made any.

Oh really? I didn't know I was obligated to create map mods. I'm not very artistic, so I'm not giving it a full attempt. However, if you were more observant you would've noticed that I did publish one several months ago. I have completed two others, and am working on a third (part of a campaign) but I'm waiting for 2.04 (sudden death fix) to complete and publish.

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Again, with your job, I would have thought that accurate portrayal of the situation would far outrank looks and sound in a game. Again, I am very surprised.

It's a video game, a digital depiction of the real world....looks and sounds ARE the portrayal of the situation.

[CapnDarwin]

Guys,

Let's do ourselves a favor and let this go for now. All we are going to do is degenerate into a fight THAT is going to waste time for all parties.

We are actively looking into a better look across the board and maps are part of that. I do like the look of many of the modders maps, but there are drawbacks in time to create them. Not off the table, but on the low end of the scale. Tiled map system would hit the middle ground of better looking map features while maintaining a functional look and high speed development of maps and more important keep the modders in the game to. At the end of the day we will weigh public opinion, but the decision on direction will be an OTS one (with inputs from Matrix).

In the end we want a great game for everyone.

Let's get back to griping about the delay in the update and mod guides now. That I can handle. [:D]

[JohnOs]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin Let's get back to griping about the delay in the update and mod guides now. That I can handle. [:D]

Ok, I'll be first, where the hell is the dam patch [:D] Wife been asking me where is this dam patch that was going to ruin Valentines day [:D]

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: MikeAP

Oh really? I didn't know I was obligated to create map mods. I'm not very artistic, so I'm not giving it a full attempt. However, if you were more observant you would've noticed that I did publish one several months ago. I have completed two others, and am working on a third (part of a campaign) but I'm waiting for 2.04 (sudden death fix) to complete and publish.

You're not obligated. We are. We are working on it as fast as we can. Which we post about every 2 days. What I was pointing out is that not everybody can make the kinds of maps that people want. The first issue to deal with is that not all of you want the same kinds of maps. While you think that one kind of map is the most desirable I have several of our other customers that want to go in a completely different direction. We are trying to work on the map issue in several different directions at once. It's as simple as just throwing money at the opportunities at hand.

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Again, with your job, I would have thought that accurate portrayal of the situation would far outrank looks and sound in a game. Again, I am very surprised.


It's a video game, a digital depiction of the real world....looks and sounds ARE the portrayal of the situation.

Actually, FPC is more simulation than video game. If it were just a video game we would have power ups and a little Pacman symbol that eats up the bad guys. It's why the graphics are at a lower level than the combat resolution. There are those that will disagreee with that statement. To each his own.

After having had my say, I will also thank you for having your say. We take the comments and suggestions of our customers very seriously. It's why we continue to try to iron out the two main issues that the largest group of gamers have with FPC. The Sudden Death ending and map graphics. We will continue to work on those until we feel we have reached a point where it works for as many of you as possible.

I have had a disclaimer for years concerning my work. "All comments appreciated. Both positive and negative." That very much still pertains to this project. While I may not agree with the comments made, I do very much agree that you get to make them. You paid money for this product and as a paying customer you get to have your say. I just may not agree with everything you say. [:D]

Now, I need to get back to work on map graphics.[8D]

Good Hunting.

MR

[budd]

No disrespect intended on my part. I would of been perfectly happy to play the game with the stock maps, they do the job just fine. I'll take gameplay improvements and more features over map graphics any day and twice on Sunday.You guys made it perfectly clear that you were going this route i.e. functionality over prettiness[:)] some time ago which is why you opened it up and made modding easier. Stay on the path and if some kind soul spends their time making better looking maps that are too my taste i'll use them but gameplay is the thing and the gameplay is most excellent and getting better. MR i've been playing your scenarios for awhile even when i didn't know they were yours, and i appreciate the work you put in on Panzer Command and Flashpoint and hope your reaping some fine fruit for your labors. Again no disrespect meant toward your work.

Now back to the mines.......where the hell is 2.03[:'(]....i need a new campaign.. i need a new scenario ...you know something that makes me look bad and question my ability to lead my pixel troops.

OOOOO....i expect 2.04 next week...you know us wargamers are a demanding crowd

[jack54]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

At the end of the day we will weigh public opinion, but the decision on direction will be an OTS one (with inputs from Matrix).

You guys have made some great decisions so far... I'm glad that will continue!

[Mad Russian]

Thanks Budd. I'm sure that Mike wasn't being disrespectful either. As he said, he used a choice of words that I took a direction I should have chosen my own words more carefully.

When you work on something for YEARS of your life and people don't like it, that's one thing. If you have thin skin you should stay out of making or selling anything. That's not a big deal. When you tell me that I did something half-assed, without knowing what the entire process is, that went into creating it, that's something else.

I was told when I started that there would be 4 maps. Like in the original FPG. I told them I would do the scenarios. They were fine with that, even though it's rare for one scenario designer to do all the scenarios and in this case we had a playtester add two of his excellent designs to finished list of battles.

The reason it's not normal for a single designer to do the entire offering in the game is time. The scenarios are greatly affected by how the code works. In this case, I wrote the story line, created the basic time line and found the battlefields on Google Earth. Then I gave that listing to the rest of the team and they started working on the game you see now. As each scenario was finished and playtested the next one had different parameters to be dealt with.

I think it's a rare team that has the scenario designer setting the tone for the coding work. But I think we have a very rare team to begin with. Any team I'm on is 'unusual' to begin with...[X(]

What they thought I was going to do was to create 4 maps, like they had in FPG. When I told them I would do a map per scenario there was silence in the call for a bit. Then they said if that was what I wanted to do I could and they would support me. The graphics didn't fit the scale and I asked that they be rescaled. Which they did. Today I would do that work myself as I've learned a lot more about graphics and HexDraw in general.

Before a scenario could be playtested it had to have a map. It took me a week to make the first one. That was in HexDraw alone. Not counting the researching the location on Google Earth after writing the location into the games timeline. I got better, and quicker. If I hadn't we would still be working on getting the scenarios done. Hand drawing roads and rivers with elevations added in is time consuming. Each map is hand drawn with literally thousands of graphics. The woods are all small sections pieced together. So are towns. To make them more functional I created contour lines through the forests so that forests didn't have hills disappear. There was a lot of trial and error as to what worked and what didn't.

I finally worked out the MR contour system and only put fields in the two lower elevations. I tried to make the maps as functional as possible. Once the map was done and I had to make corrections as I went to places where I had not moved the forest back from the road, etc., we went into heavy playtesting of each scenario.

Each scenario was playtested in order because of the different parts of the code that each one highlights. That's why chemical and nuclear weapons are at the end of the list. They were the last things we worked on. Of course, making changes to the code in any area could affect play balance in the previously done scenarios. Again, this is why there is generally more than one scenario designer, because they had to be rebalanced as we went forward.

The original team didn't have anyone with military experience. Now the team has two members with military experience and that has made a huge difference between FPG and FPC. That is probably the number one biggest change between the two games. Perspective of what a combat operation would have looked and felt like after having had boots on the ground there. Both Charles and I served some of our enlistments in Germany.

With all the changes, and they are too numerous to count, coupled with constantly changing situations and equipment in the scenarios, each week was an adventure. Not to mention Matrix asking us....WHEN????? Like some of the rest of you that we could mention...but won't.

Another huge benefit for this project is the fact that Charles has lived in the Soviet Union. If you can count wonderful warm Siberia as Russia! [X(] We don't look at the Soviet military as anything other than another national military doing their job. They aren't supermen. They aren't untermensch. They are just regular soldiers with a different doctrine and a job to do to live through this war like everybody else.

Put that all together, add in more hours and hard work than you can imagine and here we are.

No, Mike wasn't disrespectful of me, he was uninformed in all the thousands and thousands of things that had to take place before this game ever got to be put on the site for sale. But I will say this, nothing about this game was 'thrown together'. It all took untold hours and dedication to get it here. Even with the warts. I was happy with those warts or you still wouldn't have seen my part of it.

I've been in the scenario design business for computer games since Combat Mission x1 games. I started a scenario design group called HSG. I was told that gamers didn't like historically based scenarios because they weren't balanced. When we finally stopped working together as a group we had put that myth to rest. I was on one of the CM2 game alpha teams but didn't stay long. Then I ended up doing the patch for PCK which turned into PCO. Three long years for that game series to watch it die. I wasn't going to get involved in another computer game because of the time and effort it takes. But after 3 years on the Eastern Front I wanted to play something else so I bought FPG. I was less than thrilled. After a couple of inquiries I was introduced to this team, and to my benefit joined it.

That's how we got where we are now.

I'm the main target for discontent because you see my work everytime you start the game. You see my story lines, my maps, my scenarios, my campaigns. You see that you like or don't like the graphics, the scenarios, the campaigns. You don't see Rob's coding, Jim's research or Charles playtesting. Their work is the entire game. There isn't a one of us that could have been taken out of this project and have it look and feel like it does now. So, while most of the comments come my way directly at me, I have a thick skin for the most part. Unless, you tell me how lazy or careless I was. Because you can trust me above all else on this, we have never been lazy or careless about a single thing you see in this game. It's all there because we made choices to get it there to you. Some of them were the lesser of two evils. Some of them were tremendous. It's all here.

I'm glad that you all enjoy the game for the most part. We know we can make improvements and that most of your comments are aimed at making a good product even better. For that we all thank you. It's very gratifying to be a part of something that comes together as strongly as this game has.

As always...


Good Hunting.

MR

[OnTheContrary]

Well, considering the feedback in this thread this may come across as playing a bit of Devil's advocate, but...

I like the maps.

There, I said it. They are pleasing to my eye, and very readable from an information standpoint. I am past the point where I need great graphics for immersion and the more streamlined and less distracting the look, the better - I can focus on playing the game instead of admiring the esthetics.

I sure hope the new '3D' look will be completely optional as I intend to play with the originals.

[Dorb]

I too have no problem with the maps. If you change them, folks will just come up with something else they want changed again and again.(once you open the door thing) Guess it's the time we live in. Maybe come out with map pack they can buy and charge them for it down the road. I would rather see the time spent on tweaks to improve the game play which is already stellar.
Keep up the great work.

[DoubleDeuce]

Being an old school boardgamer, I actually like the current stock maps. That's not to say that they can't be prettied up somewhat but but being this is a small design team I prefer they work on the code and creating new content. As open as this game is to modding, new maps will come, it just might take some time.

[Templer_12]

Ok, there are reasons for the design of the maps.

What I am, however, still will not accept, is the representation of rivers and water bodies.

1.   The "blue" is simply "to blue".
2.   In addition, on many maps, the rivers look like as if someone had painted with a thick "Edding" marker pen http://www.edding.com/colour-and-play/products/edding-16-funtastics-window-fun/ 
all over the maps. 

Any chances for rework here?

[CapnDarwin]

Templer, No chance on the current maps of a recolor since the color is locked to the map values scanning routine. You can definitely take your own maps and change the color on them with a paint program backing up originals in case of disasters always a good idea). They are simple PNG files (large, but just a picture). You should also check out the Mods and Scenarios thread for a number of map mods with "better looking" maps from a number of talented map Modders.