Bombard missing?

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dazkaz15
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Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

The ability to bombard has been left of 2 Pl E Tp 89 Cav Sq.

Its main equipment is the M8 75mm Howitzer which is a fire support weapon for the Cav Troop.

In the image is an extract from a book that can be seen and bought from here.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WglY ... &q&f=false

I take it this is an Estabs problem so no need for a save?

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navwarcol
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by navwarcol »

The German Sturmmoerser also had this. It is a pretty easy fix, just in the estab, click the box that says can bombard.
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

ok thanks mate.

Will it also update the bombard value automatically or will I have to enter a value manually?
I don't have any experience with the Estabs.

I tried to mess with them once, but it made no sense to me, and came to the conclusion I should leave it alone [:'(]
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by navwarcol »

It looks like the weapon already has a bombard value on the gun type, just the estab units that use it, don't show as bombard capable. So it should fine just clicking that on the estab oob that use the vehicle.. that worked for the German one anyway.
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

Thanks for your help, but I have taken a look at the Estab and the bombard was already ticked.
Am I looking in the right file/place?

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navwarcol
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by navwarcol »

That is the part I meant above. But you need to go to the piece right above "name" and click that. It opens up the units that use this weapon THOSE units do no show bombard ability.
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by navwarcol »

I am on my phone haha, can't put up a picture [:)] But yes... this part is the one I meant where it will already have the numbers, the bombard strength. But you need to make the actual unit using this weapon, able to bombard as well.
The estabs using the M8 in question are:WF-US-M8 75mm AG Trp/ Cav Rec Sqdn (AD)
WF-US-M8 75mm AG Trp/ Cav Rec Sqdn (Ind)
WF-US-M8 75mm AG Trp/ Cav Rec Sqdn (both)
WF-US-M8 75mm AG Trp/ Arm Inf Btl
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Arjuna
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by Arjuna »

Setting the weapon to be able to bombard and having the unit bombard are two different things. Unless the Can Bombard/On-call Support checkbox is checked in the force estab the unit will not utilise weapons that can bombard in indirect fire. They will be limited to direct fire. The reason for this is quite simple we can't have a unit conduct two events simultaneously. So we can't have it bombard and fire, which is the desired intent above if I read that correctly.
 
The best solution is to take these fire support vehicles out opf the existing reccce unit's estab, create a separate unit estab and put these bombard fire support vehicles in it and check the Can Bombard checkbox for it.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

I'm not sure I understand what you mean Dave.

Obviously a unit can't bombard in an indirect fire support role, after the player has placed a bombard marker for it to do so, and utilise the same weapon to fire directly at targets that are nearby.

Surely when it is left to its own devices, and is tasked as on call support, it will fire directly at nearby threats, Armour and Infantry, that are a threat to it, when not over ridden by a player requested bombardment though?
Just as the Artillery units currently do.

It's not as easy as you think for someone like me to change this.
I'm still scratching my head here [:D]
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

Ok I have found the right box.
On loading the game though I still can't bombard with it.
Do I have the right Estab, there is also one called "original"

Or do I have to re-start with a new game for this to take effect?

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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

Here is an image to show all the ones I ticked.

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jimcarravall
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Setting the weapon to be able to bombard and having the unit bombard are two different things. Unless the Can Bombard/On-call Support checkbox is checked in the force estab the unit will not utilise weapons that can bombard in indirect fire. They will be limited to direct fire. The reason for this is quite simple we can't have a unit conduct two events simultaneously. So we can't have it bombard and fire, which is the desired intent above if I read that correctly.

The best solution is to take these fire support vehicles out opf the existing reccce unit's estab, create a separate unit estab and put these bombard fire support vehicles in it and check the Can Bombard checkbox for it.

By US Army doctrine, a recce unit's value is obtaining information on enemy strengths, locations, and activities for the parent formation instead of engaging the enemy directly.

While the M8-HMC may have the capability of indirect fire, its primary mission was to fortify a fire support base when offensive and defensive operations were forced on the unit by either having no other line of approach to an assigned location blocked by an enemy formation, or being caught in an encampment by an enemy unit while resting / refitting.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref ... FM2-20.pdf

There is talk about the use of indirect fire during the recce unit's combat operations, but that effort is internal to the scouting unit rather than as an on call asset to peer units in the same or higher combat echelons.



Take care,

jim
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simovitch
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by simovitch »

The dev team mulled over the bombard capabilities of these and several other units (IG's, 88's, mortar carriers, sturmmorsers, etc) ages ago. What you see in the game is the result of our decision, not an oversight, but you are free to change whatever you want of course. [:)]

The overriding factor was how well the unit was equipped with the correct sights, training, and most importantly, fire control for the bombard function. In this case we felt that the recce unit failed this test.

But if you separate the guns out of the recce unit into their own estab, it would make more sense to give those guns bombard capability.
simovitch

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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

This is what I found from the link you gave Jim.
There was a lot of information in there so I have extracted the relevant info here.

60. EMPLOYMENT OF ASSAULT GUNS.
a. The troop employs attached assault guns to support reconnaissance platoons
by placing smoke or HE concentrations on organized
enemy positions, thereby permitting side-slipping and infiltration
by reconnaissance elements. For employment in the conduct
of offensive and defensive action, see section IV.
b. The assault-gun platoon, consisting of a platoon headquarters,
two assault-gun sections (one assault gun each), and
an ammunition section, operates under reconnaissance troop control.
Usually, it is held, with one reconnaissance platoon, in
troop reserve, and employed as a unit ifi support of reconnaissance
elements as need for such support arises. Such use retains
for the troop commander the initiative in the commitment of his
reserve. Exceptionally, individual assault guns (sections) may
be attached to and operate separately with reconnaissance platoons. In such cases, the platoon headquarters and ammunition
section normally remain with the troop headquarters until
engagement of one or both of the guns necessitates resupply of
ammunition.
c. In the execution of fire and maneuver, the assault-gun
platoon is employed in the base of fire to support the maneuvering
element. Assault guns employ direct or indirect fire, depending
upon availability of suitable defiladed positions. Primary
targets are antitank guns, light and heavy machine guns.
and tanks. (FM I7-25 and I7-69.)
d. The decision to open fire and the selection of targets are
the prerogatives of the commander of the supported troop
or platoon. He may, however, direct the assault-gun platoon
or section leader to select and occupy a position, and open fire
on favorable targets without further orders.
e. The use of voice radio to direct movement of assault-gun
sections is habitual, supplemented where applicable by whistle
or arm-and-hand signals.

Combat
67. GENERAL. The reconnaissance troop of the squadron,
normally reinforced with assault guns, and with light tanks
when their use is anticipated, is prepared to fight for information
if necessary to the accomplishment of reconnaissance missions.
It also may be used to harass or delay a hostile column,
to secure critical routes or areas pending the arrival of other
forces, or for counter reconnaissance. Both offensive and defensive
action are conducted in accordance with the principles
prescribed for similar action by the reconnaissance troop, infantry
division (pars. 48 to 55, incl).
68. ATTACHMENTS. a. Assault guns are used to supplement
other available weapons in the base of fire. Their fire
is coordinated with that of mortars, 37-mm guns, and automatic
weapons, to avoid duplication of targets. Both HE and
smoke ammunition are available. The former is employed to
destroy antitank gun and machine-gun crews and tanks, and to
pin other enemy personnel to the ground, providing freedom
of maneuver for other elements. Smoke is employed to mask
the action of maneuvering elements and to prevent observation
by enemy gunners.
b. Light tanks are employed in the attack to overrun automatic
weapons and personnel, and to penetrate hostile counterreconnaissance
screens to permit infiltration of reconnaissance
elements. In the defense, they are used to repel enemy attacks
and to counterattack.

From what I read here the M8 75mm Howitzer (Assault Gun) is used in a fire base, in defilade, as an indirect fire support asset, when at all possible along with the mortars.

This is supported by the equipment list for 2 Pl E Tp in my first post, as it consiste entirely of the m8 Howitzers, and its ammunition carriers, with no inclusion of a Recon element that I can see, making this purely a support unit for the Recon Tp.

Of course I respect the decision of the Dev team on this, and am glad it was not just an oversight.
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Arjuna
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by Arjuna »

Daz,
 
Please bear this in mind. If you check that CanBombard box in an estab and then assign that estab to a unit in a scenario, then the AI will allocate that force differently and task it differently than line units. It may for instance drop it off during an assault to provide fire support once it is in range, which maybe fine. It will try a firebase it out of harms way but within range of the objective. Now if this unit also includes a lot of direct fire assets that really should be on the line then they will be stuck way behind the line and that may not be so good.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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navwarcol
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by navwarcol »

That is a good point that I entirely did not think about when I changed mine. Something to think about Dave, thank you!
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

I see what you mean now Dave, and understand the Dev team decision on this a lot better now, thanks for the clarification.

So this leads to another feature request for Command Ops X [;)]

The ability via a check box to allocate the support unit to be in either the direct fire support mode, as in the AT support units in game now, or an indirect fire support mode, like the IG guns in game at the moment.
This will allow the player more choice and flexibility, with regard to these multi use units.

As you can see in my Hofen AAR, there were occasions that I would have liked to group the IG guns with a Coy for direct fire AT support without having to move them and look after them individually myself.

Of course we need to sort out the ability of the Bn, or Coy to look after them properly first, and not have them leading the assault [:'(]
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

In an attempt to show that I am not just being pedantic here, but there is genuinely a need, not in this release obviously, but some time in the future of the series to address this issue, here is a screen shot of a situation where the indirect fire ability of this unit is badly needed.

It's the start of the Losheim Gap scenario, where the Historical, locations of the 18 Cavalry Sqn can be seen.
The Recon Platoons have been deployed as pickets, and possible delaying forces in a fan shape to the East of the HQ's location.
It has E Tp co-located in what I guess was an indirect fire support role, to provide fire support to the Recon Platoons if they should need it in order to suppress a superior size force in order to give them time to pull back.

When you run the game however it does nothing at all to support them, as they get over run one by one, and as there is no way for the player to do this manually, it leaves these units without the Fire Support that they would have had historically.

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jimcarravall
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

This is what I found from the link you gave Jim.
There was a lot of information in there so I have extracted the relevant info here.

. . .

From what I read here the M8 75mm Howitzer (Assault Gun) is used in a fire base, in defilade, as an indirect fire support asset, when at all possible along with the mortars.

This is supported by the equipment list for 2 Pl E Tp in my first post, as it consiste entirely of the m8 Howitzers, and its ammunition carriers, with no inclusion of a Recon element that I can see, making this purely a support unit for the Recon Tp.

Of course I respect the decision of the Dev team on this, and am glad it was not just an oversight.

I saw the same information.

I saw the seven M3 half tracks with 30-cal MGs could be reconnaissance platforms in the unit.

If the mission of those seven M3s and the companion unarmed half-tracks is to pull ammunition trailers for the six M8 HTCs, then the unit is little different from the mortar platoon attached to an infantry battalion.

The problem still exists that an infantry formation's primary mission is using attack and defense combat operations to gain or hold territory while a scout troop is designed to provide situational awareness using combat operations only as a last resort if it can't avoid combat using its mobility and stealth.


Take care,

jim
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dazkaz15
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RE: Bombard missing?

Post by dazkaz15 »

Hi Jim
This is from the link you gave.

As you can see this indicates that the role of this powerful recon force when reinforced with the M8 75mm Howitzers was not just reconnaissance, but also limited combat missions to secure routes, take out small enemy recon units, and penetrate the enemy line in weak locations to get behind them.
It was also used in delaying actions to give larger forces time to manoeuvre into position.

The unit in game does indeed only consist of the Howitzers, its ammunition carriers, and a small HQ element, as can be seen by the included extract in my original post.
Unless the included 3 Jeeps were used by an included reconnaissance section, but I think they are more likely for use by the small HQ?
The reconnaissance troop of the squadron, normally reinforced with assault guns, and with light tanks when their use is anticipated, is prepared to fight for information if necessary to the accomplishment of reconnaissance missions.
It also may be used to harass or delay a hostile column, to secure critical routes or areas pending the arrival of other forces, or for counter reconnaissance.
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