Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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Footslogger
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Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Footslogger »

Has anyone seen this movie yet? Was it good?

Here's the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOQnAsHLg5M

Was it the biggest battle of the entire war?
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by timmyab »

The comments don't look too promising. It gets bad reviews on imdb as well.
I didn't like the 1993 film of the same name either, although that does get decent reviews.

I don't know whether it was the biggest battle or not, probably the most important and the most brutal though.
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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What was it that went wrong for the Germans? Was it Hitler not letting Paulus retreat or something else?
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by timmyab »

I think it kind of was really. Paulus has to take a lot of the responsibility too. A better and braver commander would have disregarded the order to stay put. Also Goring was ridiculously over confident about the Luftwaffes ability to resupply 6th army from the air.
It's been a while since I read up on the battle but I seem to remember that there was a window of opportunity in the first two days of the Soviet offensive to react with 14th pz corps that wasn't used. It's almost like they didn't believe it could happen to them.
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Gabriel B. »

The germans were worn out after a long summer campaign , XIV panzer at that stage, consisted of a single panzer division (16th) with
21 operational panzer III and 10 panzer IV, plus 2 mot. divisions .
they did commit the armor from LI corps (14th and 24th ) but those were also worn out
and all they acheived is waste the little fuel the 6th army had left.
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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Perhaps the Germans should have simply dugin at the outskirts of Stalingrad and waited out the Winter storm. Then attacked in the Spring perhaps with more forces committed.[&:]
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Jeffrey H. »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

What was it that went wrong for the Germans? Was it Hitler not letting Paulus retreat or something else?

I think it was a mistake to enter into a attrition fight for every pile of rubble. The sacrifice in men was not something the Germans could afford. Also, to commit into an attrition fight in the rubble of the city, the Germans gave up their mobility advantage.

After those errors, I would say yes the descision to stay put inside the pocket was the last bad one that doomed the entire 6th army.

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Ostwindflak »

Just wanted to point out a really good book I finished about 6 months ago now. It is called "Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed". The author is Michael K. Jones. It was a great read and a good honest accounting from the perspective of the commanders and soldiers of the Russian 62nd Army.

The one thing which sticks out in my mind from that book is an excerpt from Chuikov's memoirs after the war which said that even though his army was backed up to the Volga and taking enormous casualties, he and his subordinates felt as though they could beat the German 6th Army as long as Paulus stayed in command. They knew how Paulus fought and were okay with that. Chuikov also said the thing he feared the most was that Hitler or OKH would replace Paulus with someone like Rommel who could grasp the tactics and adapt to the house to house and street by street fighting which the Soviets excelled in during the battle of Stalingrad.

It is a great book and worth the read. [:)]
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

Just wanted to point out a really good book I finished about 6 months ago now. It is called "Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed". The author is Michael K. Jones. It was a great read and a good honest accounting from the perspective of the commanders and soldiers of the Russian 62nd Army.

The one thing which sticks out in my mind from that book is an excerpt from Chuikov's memoirs after the war which said that even though his army was backed up to the Volga and taking enormous casualties, he and his subordinates felt as though they could beat the German 6th Army as long as Paulus stayed in command. They knew how Paulus fought and were okay with that. Chuikov also said the thing he feared the most was that Hitler or OKH would replace Paulus with someone like Rommel who could grasp the tactics and adapt to the house to house and street by street fighting which the Soviets excelled in during the battle of Stalingrad.

It is a great book and worth the read. [:)]

A very unexpected conclusion. Was Paulus simply a rotten commander?

Another question is, why didn't the Germans just simply surround the city into starvation?
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by timmyab »

Do a search on youtube, there's loads of good documentaries that cover the subject.
Purely from my (very dodgy) memory, Paulus was primarily a staff officer who got promoted when the 6th army commander Reichenau died, or was taken ill possibly. I don't know what his reputation was based on but it does seem an odd decision not to have placed a tried and tested commander in charge of 6th army at such a critical time and place.
The Germans couldn't surround the city because they couldn't get across the Volga. Somehow the Russians ferried supplies and reinforcements across, but with terrible casualties. By the time the soldiers had crossed the river they were already veterans, those that made it.

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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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So Hitler divided his army. One for Stalingrad and the other for the Caucuses. If it wasn't for Hitler's bad decision(s), and if he went for the Caucuses instead, I wonder what would have happened.

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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Gabriel B. »

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Purely from my (very dodgy) memory, Paulus was primarily a staff officer who got promoted when the 6th army commander Reichenau died, or was taken ill possibly. I don't know what his reputation was based on but it does seem an odd decision not to have placed a tried and tested commander in charge of 6th army at such a critical time and place.

He was 6th army Chef of Generalstaf since formation .

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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Purely from my (very dodgy) memory, Paulus was primarily a staff officer who got promoted when the 6th army commander Reichenau died, or was taken ill possibly. I don't know what his reputation was based on but it does seem an odd decision not to have placed a tried and tested commander in charge of 6th army at such a critical time and place.

He was 6th army Chef of Generalstaf since formation .

Slight correction, he was Reichenau's chief of staff from September 1939 till the end of the France campaign. Afterwards he was named Oberquartiermeister I. As such he was Halder's deputy and also responsible for working out the Barbarossa plan. After von Reichenau's promotion to Army Group South's commander he was named head of 6th Army. His promotion was not free from criticism due to him not having commanded an unit before, but that criticism was muted after the Kharkov battle in May 1942, only to flare up again after Stalingrad.
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by timmyab »

Found this documentary about Paulus. His men thought of him as a vacillator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6w6F0gFzaw
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Gabriel B. »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Purely from my (very dodgy) memory, Paulus was primarily a staff officer who got promoted when the 6th army commander Reichenau died, or was taken ill possibly. I don't know what his reputation was based on but it does seem an odd decision not to have placed a tried and tested commander in charge of 6th army at such a critical time and place.

He was 6th army Chef of Generalstaf since formation .

Slight correction, he was Reichenau's chief of staff from September 1939 till the end of the France campaign. Afterwards he was named Oberquartiermeister I. As such he was Halder's deputy and also responsible for working out the Barbarossa plan. After von Reichenau's promotion to Army Group South's commander he was named head of 6th Army. His promotion was not free from criticism due to him not having commanded an unit before, but that criticism was muted after the Kharkov battle in May 1942, only to flare up again after Stalingrad.

Irc , von Reichenau argued that ,he cannot command both AGC and 6th army in front of Hitler, and recomended him.


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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

A very unexpected conclusion. Was Paulus simply a rotten commander?

Another question is, why didn't the Germans just simply surround the city into starvation?
[/quote]


Paulus's strong points were in Command Staff, not leading combat formations. During military exercises conducted in Germany sometime in the 1920's if memory serves me right on the time frame, Paulus was in command of a combat unit. It was said that the top commanders who were presiding over the exercises had commented that Paulus lacked "initiative" and "decisiveness" and thus was not recommended for future command of combat units. It isn't that he was a bad officer, he just didn't have what it took to command units in the field and was best suited for logistics and such.

6th Army was taking it's orders direct from Hitler like every other unit. Hitler wanted 6th Army, his largest army on the Eastern Front, to take Stalingrad at all costs for the political implication; mainly due to the city having Stalin's name in it. Paulus was not the type of commander to suggest other things to his superiors and obeyed unquestioningly. At the outset of the battle 6th Army probably had enough push left to skirt around Stalingrad and cross the Volga elsewhere to cut off the city, but that was not what Hitler wanted and thus we got the battle of Stalingrad.

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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by swkuh »

Hitler's fantasy was that the fall of S'grad would demoralize Soviets and/or interrupt Soviet supply to North. Hard to believe that one. And it would be very difficult to supply & operate East of the Volga. Think that Soviets could always work around any bridgehead, etc.

Germany had very long supply lines, but Soviets' much shorter. Germany was near a limit in forces, Russia only finding their stride.

Maybe Germany's original goal of Grozny/Baku (to shut down Soviet supply sources) might have had better results, but same supply line & force ratios would apply.
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Maybe Germany's original goal of Grozny/Baku (to shut down Soviet supply sources) might have had better results, but same supply line & force ratios would apply.
The failure of Fall Blau was a mathematical certainty

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Well, nevertheless I've quick translated that informative post for interested people to see:
The official in charge for fuel matters in the OKH, Major Pollex, warned numerous times during the planning of "Fall Blau" that with the fuel provided the success of the offensive could be precluded with mathematical certainty (cmp. Wagner, 1977, p.219). [...] The Quartermaster-general Wagner also had concerns regarding the transportation. [...]

Already seven days after the beginning of Blau (4th July 1942) XXXX. Panzer Corps was so restricted by fuel shortages, that only parts of the corps were able to attack in order to attempt the encirclement of the Soviet forces. Four days later the leading elements of 4th Panzer Army had to halt at the Tikhaya Sozna for the same reason. Part of the reason for LSSAH's withdrawal was the doubt that the Germans could guarantee its mobility due to fuel shortages (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p.205). After the offensive was split up in late July the Caucasus forces had to require transportation space from Army Group B. Due to this measure alone the entire 6th Army lost its mobility for six full days in July (cmp. Wegner, 1990, p.892). So only a short time into Blau fuel shortages were a constant companion of the German forces and not only restricted freedom of operations, but also gave the Soviets valuable time. Therefore the Red Army was not only able to detach themselves from the Wehrmacht, but also strengthen defensive lines and deliver reinforcements to the front.

The fuel shortages were not only due to the problem of the initial provision of fuel, but also due to transportation.

The major rail lines in the South of the Soviet Union all converged at the bottle neck of Rostov and the lines towards Stalingrad and Caucasus were not built up very well. They were mostly single track and moreover left with significant damages needing repairs. In addition personnel and material shortages significantly reduced the performance of the German rail system. The Germans only reached 50% of the calculated capacity (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.30). Therefore the Germans had to resupply their troops by air which provided a certain lift, but didn't correct the problem itself. The chief of transportation of the Wehrmacht, General Gercke, was asked for his opinion about the effects of the splitting of the offensive on the transportation system. His verdict was very explicit: a simultaneous supply of both spearheads was impossible. The available vehicle transportation space was not sufficient to compensate the efficiency drop of the rail system. Therefore he advised against the splitting of the offensive (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.32).

Initially 11th Army was to cross the Straits of Kerch after conclusion of the battles on the Crimea and support the drive into the Caucasus. Yet a reason for the cancellation of this operation was the capacity overload of the rail network (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p. 31).

How terrible the logistical situation was, is reflected in the fact that in the course of the offensive the trains were backed up to Silesia. That's around 2000 kilometres to the west (cmp. Philippi; Heim, 1962, p.163). Over 1.000 trains were affected by these hold-ups, a record number at that time (cmp. Rhode, 1971, p.158). The train lines beyond Rostov meanwhile had a capacity of 12 trains per day (cmp. Bork, 1953, p.33).

General Doerr, during Blau Chief of Staff of LII. AK, came to the conclusion that the hold-ups of the fuel supply alone was enough to wreck the campaign (cmp. Doerr, 1955, p.31).

The catastrophic supply situation led to Major Weinknecht, quartermaster of Army Group B at that time, demanding the withdrawal of 6th Army and 3rd Rumanian Army to a position around Don - Donets. His concerns were rebutted and a month later he was relieved of duty (cmp. Krumpelt, 1968, p. 206).

Especially problematic in all this is, that already in 1941 the demands of the logistical planners to adjust the operations to the capabilities of the supply system was ignored. A year later the Germans till hadn't learned out of this experience and the consequence were borne by the ordinary soldiers.

Literature:

Bork, Max: Comments on Russian Railroads an Highways, USAREUR, 1953

Doerr, Hans: Der Feldzug nach Stalingrad, Frankfurt/Main 1955

Halder, Franz: Kriegstagebuch. Tägliche Aufzeichnungen des Chefs des Generalstabes des Heeres 1939-1942. Hrsg. v. Arbeitskreis für Wehrforschung. Bearb. v. Hans-Adolf Jacobsen, Band III, 1964

Hartmann, Christian: Halder. Generalstabschef Hitlers 1938-1942, Paderborn 2010

Krumpelt, Ihno: Das Material und die Kriegführung, Frankfurt/Main 1968

Philippi, Alfred; Heim, Ferdinand: Der Feldzug gegen Sowjetrussland 1941 bis 1945 - ein operativer Überblick, Stuttgart 1962

Rhode, Horst: Das deutsche Wehrmachttransportwesen im Zweiten Weltkrieg, Stuttgart 1971

Wagner, Elisabeth: Meine Erlebnisse nach dem 20. Juli 1944. Die Zeit von Juli 1944 bis September 1945, in Erinnerung an den Generalquartiermeister Eduard Wagner. München 1977

Wegner, Bernd: Hitlers zweiter Feldzug. Militärische Konzeption und strategische Grundlagen, in: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 6, S. 761-1102
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swkuh
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by swkuh »

Appreciate your scholarship.

Wehrmacht staff had early and often opposed Hitler, but early victories reinforced Hitler and degraded Wehrmacht's staffers reputation. (At least that's my naïve impression.)
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RE: Stalindgrad 2013 Movie?

Post by Michael T »

FWIW if you play OCS Case Blue you will see the real supply problems described above reflected in the that game. At any one time you can only expect enough fuel to operate about half your Pz/Mot XX. Unless you still for a bunch of weeks and build up a stockpile. Boardgames still rule [:D]
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