Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Battle for East China Sea -Day 3[/font]
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Sorry if this isn´t as detailed as some of you may wish. But to write a detailed account of every individual combat during the last 2 turns would take me hours and hours. So you will have to do with a summery.

Really not sure what happened. But for some reason (as can be seen in the map) my 3 CVE TFs decided that they shouldnt do as ordered and go together with the SCTF fleet up to Moppo.

I have never seen something even remotely close to this happening. All are set to "Absolute" and "direct" They were all set to go to Moppo and ended up as indicated.

This led to the loss of 6 CVEs previously damaged that was sent to Moppo to take cover under the CVE Fleet. They were now left without cover together with the Amphibs. Very annoying! [:@]

Bunker Hill didn´t make it to Moppo but was sunk by some CLs outside Saisho Tu. Had hoped she would make it but I guess she would have been out of the war anyway.

Due to the SCTF fleet going south instead of going to Moppo as ordered they ended up without aircover and took a beating. Nevada and Maryland will be out for the rest of the war. CA Chester might not make it with 82 FLT. Other then that the British CAs will need some time in the yard 10-20 SYS.

While yesterday was a bit of a sour grape I will admit this turn was hard to swallow. Had the CVEs and SCTFs moved to Moppo as ordered things would have looked very differently. Anyone have an idea what happened? They are all moving towards their home ports. The "follow TF" commands have been wiped clean from all of them as have the destination. I don´t get it. [:(]

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Moppo
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On the more good news side the troops are in excellent position. Everything is unloaded together with 120.000 supply. [&o] Disruption and FAT is minimal and I can attack straight away. The infantry will attack while the armor will be set to pursuit.

I will do as Bullwinkle suggest and head East for Fusan. Erik can never defend Gunzan anyway so I can grab that later. I have around 2000 "armored AV". All Shermans, Flame tanks and Jacksons that will power on ahead from the main army! I know from experience the Japanese simply lack the AT capabilities to deal with this. Korea will be extremely hard to defend for Erik. Clear hexes just won´t do it. The most sensible thing for him would be to set up a MLR anchored at Keijo. Not sure he will do the sensible thing though. As koniu says having the Allies in Korea is a Japanese disaster and Erik will most likely throw as much as he dares in the way.

He has already lost that battle though. He can never throw 5500 Allied AV back into the sea. Even if he does manage to pin me at Moppo that can still be built up to a level 9 AF. I´ve already landed with everything I need at Moppo for now (BFs, ENGs, Radar, AA, CD Guns) so we will be fine for a couple of weeks.

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The Fleet
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Even though some of you reading this AAR seem to think the Fleet have been struck a mortal blow that is not the case. I still have 2500 CV planes ready and 90% of the surface fleet intact. The job description have changed though. This was the last major Amphibious OP. The fleet now only have one assignment and that is to make sure Korea stays supplied.

First we will have to pull back to Okinawa and replenish fuel and planes.

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Victory Points
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Despite the losses over the last two days the final VP count lands at -702 VPs. Erik lost another 900 planes last turn bringing the total air losses up to 2600 planes. If I can avoid further losses that will take 3 days or so to nullify.

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China
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North of Nanning we now have troops in position to clear the road north to the Chinese.

In the south Erik has again "Superstacked". Now its 220.000 men just SW of Kanhsien. Perfect! [:)] While he sits there 2000 AV is heading North towards the CMA and Changsha. Soon I´ll swing the CMA south and slip them in behind Eriks new Superstack. Another 2000 AV is heading back to secure Canton/HK. They got all the combat engineers and 30% of the artillery with them.

While they do that we are going to use Eriks Superstack against him to burn supplies. 3000 AV with most of the artillery will engage the Superstack with bombardment. At least for now. Its only a x2 terrain hex. He would have been better off staying in the x3 hex where he was. [&:]

Here is a screen of the crazy naval movement of the CVEs and Surface Fleet. Anyone seen something like this before? Any idea what might have caused it?

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koniu
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by koniu »

It will be not easy task to keep landing supplied. KB is still alive and Your ships will have to move close to HI lvl 9 AFs.

I think it is just beginning. Until You manage to suppress Kyushu and win battle with KB i suspect bloody weeks.

Still it is nice to watch game like that. Really nice.
"Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War"
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

I´m not that worried. [:)]

I will simply do as I have done before at Luzon. Pack everything on barges (and never an entire unit) and send them in one at a time under a nice CAP/LRCAP. Erik might sink some but he will soon grow tired of losing thousands of planes for barges. Not saying it will be easy but I´m not worried.



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koniu
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by koniu »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I´m not that worried. [:)]

I will simply do as I have done before at Luzon. Pack everything on barges (and never an entire unit) and send them in one at a time under a nice CAP/LRCAP. Erik might sink some but he will soon grow tired of losing thousands of planes for barges. Not saying it will be easy but I´m not worried.

I am worried that You are not worried.[;)]
Never underestimate your enemy, this is first step to defeat
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

That is good advice. I´ll try to get more worried! [;)]

Anyone have an idea why my CVE/Surface Fleet moved the way they did? Don´t want to start doing the turn until I know what caused it. Don´t want it to happen again.
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jonreb31
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jonreb31 »

A real spectacle for us watching from above the battleground. I can't say I'm skipping many of the subscription emails. His perimeter is looking a tad precarious at this point. You want him to surrender before August, don't you?
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: JonReb
A real spectacle for us watching from above the battleground. I can't say I'm skipping many of the subscription emails. His perimeter is looking a tad precarious at this point. You want him to surrender before August, don't you?

I´m certainly trying too! [:)]

I doubt I will be successful though as Erik air force is still stronger then mine. My own personal goal is to achieve AV before the surrender date. That might be impossible now. If I just had kept up the nightbombings I would have achieved that in late July. Not much fun in that though... [:)]

I really, really want to try a daylight campaign. This was the best way to try! [:)]
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Encircled
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Encircled »

Here is a screen of the crazy naval movement of the CVEs and Surface Fleet. Anyone seen something like this before? Any idea what might have caused it?

No idea at all. Its got to be something to do with reacting to all the fighting though (I realise that is no help at all, but it would be unrealistic with all the action going on for everyone to do exactly what they were supposed to!)
Speedysteve
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Speedysteve »

Hi Jocke.

My brief thoughts are that with the losses you've sustained, at this stage of the war (caveat that the Japs are stronger than RL), it's a tactical defeat. It's now down to whether you can make use and advantage of the land forces and expand your control and begin to put the HI's under aerial assault!
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

Hey Speedy,

Yeah, now its my job to turn that tactical defeat into a strategic win!
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

That is good advice. I´ll try to get more worried! [;)]

Anyone have an idea why my CVE/Surface Fleet moved the way they did? Don´t want to start doing the turn until I know what caused it. Don´t want it to happen again.

I don't have anything I'd bet on. But my guess would be some code combo/interaction of:

1. Speed differences. Even a knot or two can throw the code into another tier of analysis.

2. The shallow water line? (Probably not, but maybe.)

3. The outcome of a probably very intense, hex-by-hex air superiority calculation. Maybe that was fighting itself. The engine doesn't like thousands of fighters in a five-hex circle.

4. Close quarters. I don't like to use Follow when running a slot or in island-infested waters. Does it follow on the hex-side to the rear right or rear-left? That can influence how the above factors fit in as the phase unfolds down in the weeds.

If I had to pick one factor I'd say it was the intense air environment. The code knows what air superiority was over by Shanghai while you may not.

But I agree it's frustrating.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

I´ve tried to replicate the behavior of the 4 TFs in sandbox all morning. Just can´t get the same result.

Something broke the "follow TF" setting on 4 of 5 TFs (CVE 3 is still following CVE 2). But on CVE 1, CVE 2 and Slow BB 1 the follow command are wiped clean. BB 1 doesn´t even have a destination set while CVE 1 and 2 have their destination set to their home port (Naha) which still doesn´t explain why CVE 2 ended up going west and CVE 1 went due east almost ending along the Japanese coast.

I went back several saved and the setting have not changed. I don´t get it. They were all set to follow a small SCTF set for Moppo. That TF ended up as ordered in Moppo. I have used this system throughout the game without problems. Bad time to have it go haywire.

EDIT: Saw your post after I posted this. Thanks Bullwinkle. Probably a combination of some of the factors you listed. Things like this never seem to happen on good occasions!
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

The other thing it could be is COs stats factoring into the air superiority "uh oh!" factor. What was the speed of the lead Surface TF? If it outran the CVEs, even by a knot, their COs had to make a decision based on their stats and randoms and air superiority. The TFs without destinations say to me that the lead outran the followers for whatever reason, and they then made independent decisions. Why everybody isn't heading back to homeport is odd to me though.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

They had the same cruise speed (4) and where set to mission speed. The SCTF max speed was 9 while the other TFs where 5 and 6.

Only thing remotely close to this was when I had some Cargo TFs resetting to home port in the middle of a mission. But I´ve never seen the follow command wiped before. I´ll not rule out a mistake on my part but I doubt I managed to cancel the follow command on 4 different TFs. I had already moved them around in this manner for weeks. I even named the SCTF to "lead TF" and have used that to move everyone around for weeks. The way the TFs moved indicate "something" forced them to move and that lead to the "follow" command to be wiped.

I guess from now on I´ll move each TF individually. Costly lesson.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

I´ve started doing the turn. So much to do though. Not only do I have to take care of hundred of fragments spread all around the map. Even on SU bases. Also have to deal with all the ships taking damage on day 2. Most of them will back in a month but they still have to be sorted out and sent on their way.

I have to use the opportunity presented over the HI now that Kuyhsu is down to 400 fighters instead of the usual 2500. I see two options. Either I just exploit a couple of days of a weaker Japanese air force to get as much kicks in as possible. OR I launch a all out air offensive hoping the high SR of his Fighters like Frank and Ki-83 will keep him suppressed. Is this even possible?

Its a gamble. One bad day could see the precious pools I finally built up wiped clean again. Lack of space will also mean I can´t use my P38s for escorts but will have to rely on Sweeps going in first only. I also can´t use the USMC/Navy in this as their Fighter pools are in bad shape.

Thoughts?

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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

I would say always press him as much as you can and never release the brakes... IF you can.
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ny59giants
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by ny59giants »

Its a gamble. One bad day could see the precious pools I finally built up wiped clean again. Lack of space will also mean I can´t use my P38s for escorts but will have to rely on Sweeps going in first only. I also can´t use the USMC/Navy in this as their Fighter pools are in bad shape.

What is wrong with this picture?!?
Its May '45 and the Allies don't have enough airframes while Japan will be able to refill her air groups a lot more easily.
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EHansen
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by EHansen »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Its a gamble. One bad day could see the precious pools I finally built up wiped clean again. Lack of space will also mean I can´t use my P38s for escorts but will have to rely on Sweeps going in first only. I also can´t use the USMC/Navy in this as their Fighter pools are in bad shape.

What is wrong with this picture?!?
Its May '45 and the Allies don't have enough airframes while Japan will be able to refill her air groups a lot more easily.

And in other threads I see players complaining that the Allies get so much stuff that Japan has no chance. What is correct?
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: EHansen
And in other threads I see players complaining that the Allies get so much stuff that Japan has no chance. What is correct?

After say mid to late 43 the Allies will hold a big advantage in both quality and quantity both on sea and land. But in the air a competent Japanese player will have unlimited numbers of planes and pilots. This while the the allies are stuck with historical replacement rates. PDU ON also means that the Allied player is stuck with historical air frames (as well as replacement rates) while the Japanese can chose to field only a few select planes of the best model. This makes the air war somewhat...skewered.

All my own highly personal opinion of course! There are allied players out their arguing this is not a problem. I think the differing opinions is due to skill differences with the Japanese players. Its a big difference between in how well Japanese players handle the production. Some are truly good with this and some are worse.
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EHansen
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by EHansen »

The scary part is by not being able to obtain air superiority the advantages in land and sea tend to evaporate.
I hope my current PBEM opponent is not one of the very good production gurus. [8D]
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