Great Patriotic War (smokindave34 welcome)

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smokindave34
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RE: Operation Kutuzov

Post by smokindave34 »

I notified Callistrid that I am going to resign from our game. This is the third game in a row (Sapper, M60, Callistrid) where I have been handled decisively in '41 by solid Soviet opponents and I see no reason to go forward. I decided to stand and fight and have 7 divisions surrounded two turns into the blizzard. I used to be able to handle the axis well enough to produce a competitive game even against very good players (The Pro's) but no longer. This game is extremely challenging to play as axis right now against solid opponents (as other axis players better than I have noted) and I no longer seem to be able to make it into '43 with any real chance of standing up to the Soviets. Excellent game by you Callistrid - sorry to end it on you so quickly! I'll have to hang up my Field Marshall's baton for a while.....
Callistrid
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Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

This game is over, and Dave was a very good opponent. Fighting on the Germans side is tough. It's enough to make a little mistake, and the war is lost. Let's see what I learn with the Soviet

1. Playing with the Soviet is easy. The sapper an construction brigades build fortification easily, and if you retreat on the first six turns, the saved troops with the reinforcements can hardly hit the advancing German troops. With the new rule the German can't pocket troops, because the encirclement can be broke easily.

2. Mild winter. Strong Soviet defeat the German, weak not. So the successful winter operation depend on how powerful is the Soviet army, not what my opponent did. On my game against Dave there infantry stack in level 2 fortification was easy to beat.

3. Paratroops. I never drop them, but using them could DE devastating. Easy method to break the supply line, or to isolate troops.

Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

4. The Soviet have more rail yard then it should to have. With 100k+ it's easy to transport full fronts to threatened sectors. Using your short transport lines, the German will always face with strong troops in the critical sectors. And the factory evacuation is too fast. In the first seven turn, all what is unorganised sent to the urals.

5. Retreat, retreat, retreat. There is no reason to stand and fight on the first seven turn. Only around Leningrad, but that could be managed. The German could move close to Moscow, but never capture.

6. nonrandom weather. The nonrandom weather is not just a German favors. Because always the Soviet moves second, it's easy to be brave without consequences. You know when will be mud, and when could rest the troops, move forward to refit, or launch attack, when normally never do, because you don't know what will be the next weather.


And the most important. The 2/1 rule. It wag ugly when I start beating the German army around turn 14. The clear terrain gains no bonus defenses, and 6~9 cv into can be hit, without fear. And what is real worse, when you start attacking the front, launch 10+ successful attack.
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Disgruntled Veteran
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RE: Operation Kutuzov

Post by Disgruntled Veteran »

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I notified Callistrid that I am going to resign from our game. This is the third game in a row (Sapper, M60, Callistrid) where I have been handled decisively in '41 by solid Soviet opponents and I see no reason to go forward. I decided to stand and fight and have 7 divisions surrounded two turns into the blizzard. I used to be able to handle the axis well enough to produce a competitive game even against very good players (The Pro's) but no longer. This game is extremely challenging to play as axis right now against solid opponents (as other axis players better than I have noted) and I no longer seem to be able to make it into '43 with any real chance of standing up to the Soviets. Excellent game by you Callistrid - sorry to end it on you so quickly! I'll have to hang up my Field Marshall's baton for a while.....

Enjoyed the AAR and hope you stick with the game. However, in this case, there is no shame in throwing in the towel. This game is a lot of time investment and if you don't get a better than average 41 its very hard to have an enjoyable game. I'm having mixed results myself. Doing fairly well with A-Game, getting dominated by the Pro's so I understand the sentiment.
Callistrid
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RE: Operation Kutuzov

Post by Callistrid »

Dave. What was in the center. The Bryansk-D town area was empty?
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Peltonx
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

This game is over, and Dave was a very good opponent. Fighting on the Germans side is tough. It's enough to make a little mistake, and the war is lost. Let's see what I learn with the Soviet

1. Playing with the Soviet is easy. The sapper an construction brigades build fortification easily, and if you retreat on the first six turns, the saved troops with the reinforcements can hardly hit the advancing German troops. With the new rule the German can't pocket troops, because the encirclement can be broke easily.

2. Mild winter. Strong Soviet defeat the German, weak not. So the successful winter operation depend on how powerful is the Soviet army, not what my opponent did. On my game against Dave there infantry stack in level 2 fortification was easy to beat.

3. Paratroops. I never drop them, but using them could DE devastating. Easy method to break the supply line, or to isolate troops.


The game is so screwed up right now far worse then 1 to 2 years ago.

Sad to say, but its really not worth playing right now.

You can close your eyes and win so easily now as Russian player-game is a complete waste of time in its current state.

This is not opinion but simply fact in AAR after AAR

Not sure how a game can be worse off then 2 years ago, but it clearly is.
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Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

The soviet can save his army. It's easy to retreat. After 15-20 game the best soviet stategy is to fall back, and retake the lost territory during the blizzard turns. The geman can't do anything.
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Michael T
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Michael T »

The game is so screwed up right now far worse then 1 to 2 years ago.

Sad to say, but its really not worth playing right now.

You can close your eyes and win so easily now as Russian player-game is a complete waste of time in its current state.

This is not opinion but simply fact in AAR after AAR

Not sure how a game can be worse off then 2 years ago, but it clearly is.

+1

I am not even sure now the 1:1 > 2:1 option will help. Something has gone badly wrong with the game in the last 12 months. Meanwhile I am enjoying AGW.
Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

The soviet retreat is the great problem.
If the russuian will stand and fight, he will be defeated. If fall back the game is won.

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Peltonx
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

The soviet can save his army. It's easy to retreat. After 15-20 game the best soviet stategy is to fall back, and retake the lost territory during the blizzard turns. The geman can't do anything.

.12 or one of the patches greatly lowered German MP's so it impossible to do much of anything now.

If you have any skills you can hold Leningrad, Smolensk to Just east of D-town now, plus exploit the sht out of 1v1=2v1.

As you say mild winter is a joke.

Sure a expert German can easly defeat a less then average Russian player, but all things being equal game is a disaster in it current state.

Its not fun because it is so predictable- when one side can win 100% of the time something is majorly screwed up.
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Peltonx
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
The game is so screwed up right now far worse then 1 to 2 years ago.

Sad to say, but its really not worth playing right now.

You can close your eyes and win so easily now as Russian player-game is a complete waste of time in its current state.

This is not opinion but simply fact in AAR after AAR

Not sure how a game can be worse off then 2 years ago, but it clearly is.

+1

I am not even sure now the 1:1 > 2:1 option will help. Something has gone badly wrong with the game in the last 12 months. Meanwhile I am enjoying AGW.

No the game is working- morveal fixed so many screw ups.

2by3 has been tring to counter German MP's for 2.5 yrs buffing SHC- now that GHC side is WAD, SHC needs some major nerfs and I mean major.
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Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

Personally, I belive the best sollution is:

1. lowering the soviet movement points to max 8 in 41, 12 in blizzard turns, and 16 after 42 october
2. Double of the rail cost (all types, including industry, troops...)
3. In GC41 the 4 AGS panzer's movement set to 25, avoiding the Lvov pocket
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Michael T
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Michael T »

SHC needs some major nerfs and I mean major.

Problem is it ain't going to happen my friend.

Callistrid your point 1 is very true. I advocated similar many moons ago. But ignored.

WITE is the only game on the War in Russia I have seen where Soviet INF can out speed German INF.

A big problem is Soviet units follow even the most complex orders perfectly in 1941.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Personally, I belive the best sollution is:

1. lowering the soviet movement points to max 8 in 41, 12 in blizzard turns, and 16 after 42 october
2. Double of the rail cost (all types, including industry, troops...)
3. In GC41 the 4 AGS panzer's movement set to 25, avoiding the Lvov pocket

You can modify #2 as you wish on the transport section of game settings.
Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Personally, I belive the best sollution is:

1. lowering the soviet movement points to max 8 in 41, 12 in blizzard turns, and 16 after 42 october
2. Double of the rail cost (all types, including industry, troops...)
3. In GC41 the 4 AGS panzer's movement set to 25, avoiding the Lvov pocket

You can modify #2 as you wish on the transport section of game settings.

True :)
hfarrish
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by hfarrish »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Personally, I belive the best sollution is:

1. lowering the soviet movement points to max 8 in 41, 12 in blizzard turns, and 16 after 42 october
2. Double of the rail cost (all types, including industry, troops...)
3. In GC41 the 4 AGS panzer's movement set to 25, avoiding the Lvov pocket

I think number 1 is extremely problematic (the other two probably ok) - with 8 MPs the Soviet player cannot attack at all unless their units start the turn adjacent to the Germans. This very often is not the case and will lead to a grossly ahistoric (and incredibly boring for the Red) '41 that I guarantee absolutely no Soviets will play once it is tested.

If anything the Soviets should have lower odds of succeeding in attacks (getting rid of the 1:1=2:1 rule and possibly other changes) and a GREATER ability to make them (i.e. a lower deliberate attack MP cost). This would do far more to simulate actual eastern front conditions - multiple bloody failures for the occasional success - than effectively cutting off the ability to counterattack meaningfully at all.


Callistrid
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by Callistrid »

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Personally, I belive the best sollution is:

1. lowering the soviet movement points to max 8 in 41, 12 in blizzard turns, and 16 after 42 october
2. Double of the rail cost (all types, including industry, troops...)
3. In GC41 the 4 AGS panzer's movement set to 25, avoiding the Lvov pocket

I think number 1 is extremely problematic (the other two probably ok) - with 8 MPs the Soviet player cannot attack at all unless their units start the turn adjacent to the Germans. This very often is not the case and will lead to a grossly ahistoric (and incredibly boring for the Red) '41 that I guarantee absolutely no Soviets will play once it is tested.

If anything the Soviets should have lower odds of succeeding in attacks (getting rid of the 1:1=2:1 rule and possibly other changes) and a GREATER ability to make them (i.e. a lower deliberate attack MP cost). This would do far more to simulate actual eastern front conditions - multiple bloody failures for the occasional success - than effectively cutting off the ability to counterattack meaningfully at all.

Without the lvov pocket the soviet has enough power to something.
hfarrish
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by hfarrish »


Stopping power yes...but with no ability to plan counterattacks other than lucking into a reactionary slap at German units that the German player consents to leave nearby, it would be a profoundly passive defense, ahistoric and unfun.

I don't disagree that things need more work, but I don't think this is the solution.
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loki100
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RE: Consequence of the Soviet side

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
SHC needs some major nerfs and I mean major.

Problem is it ain't going to happen my friend.

Callistrid your point 1 is very true. I advocated similar many moons ago. But ignored.

WITE is the only game on the War in Russia I have seen where Soviet INF can out speed German INF.

A big problem is Soviet units follow even the most complex orders perfectly in 1941.

Except that MP is not the only issue, its also cost to enter enemy hexes/ZoCz etc (ie a consequence of morale). As hfarrish says, lowering MP removes the means to make any attacks. So MP in this game has to be set in terms of differential costs and that is unique.

Your second point has some merit, especially at the sub-game scale. The biggest problem in co-ordinating at division and above was getting everything in place in time. That leads to the problem of a 1 week turn with no interim time segments.

I like hfarrish's idea of making attacking easier for the Soviets but increasing the losses for doing so.
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