2 VPs per 4E?

[Icedawg]

Is this true? I just read something to this effect on another thread.

If it is true, when did it start?

Someone's probably going to say "with Uncommon Valor" and I'll go crawl back under my rock.

[Alfred]

Yes.
 
Can't recall the situation re classical WITP but page 263 of the AE manual lists the VP harvest.
 
Alfred

[witpqs]

Apologies for this partial hijack...

17.0 VICTORY CONDITIONS

Throughout the game, both sides are scoring victory
points (VPs). VPs are gained and lost as units are
destroyed. At the end of the game, these points are
totaled along with the points for bases controlled by
either side, and these points are then compared to
determine which side has won. Points are awarded
in the following ways:

Aircraft Destroyed (Japanese or Allied):
» 1 VP per plane destroyed
» 2 VP per Heavy Bomber destroyed

Ground Units Destroyed:
» Allied ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or guns):
» Philippine and Chinese: 1 VP for every 12 items destroyed
» Soviet: 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed
» All Other Allied: 1 VP for every 3 items destroyed
» Japanese ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or
guns): 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed

Ships Sunk - The VPs for sinking a ship is based on the durability and capacity of the ship:
» For CV and CVL ships, add 3 times the A/C capacity to the durability.
» For CVE ships, add 2 times the A/C capacity to the durability.
» For CS ships, add the A/C capacity to the durability.

For all ships, additional value is calculated based on the troop, cargo, and liquid carrying
capacity of the ship. A big transport or tanker are very valuable.

If a ship is scuttled, it will score 10% less than its standard VP’s.

Ships that are destroyed while under construction will score one half of the standard VPs.

Ships that are lost to marine casualties and other non-combat action (grounding, collision, etc)
score 75% of the standard VP

The minimum Victory Point value of any ship is 1.

Ship Damaged - In certain scenarios VP’s are awarded for ships that have system damage
at the end of the game but are not sunk. The points awarded are equal to the normal VPs for
sinking x 1/2 x system damage / 100). In scenarios allowing points for ship damage, ships may
not be sent home to Japan, Pearl Harbor, or any other off map location. In these scenarios the
Intel screen will list the total number of ships on each side that are damaged and the victory
points earned for these ships. A display showing data on ships sunk will appear at the end of a
scenario, and points scored from damaged ships is located in the player’s Intel screen.

Control of Base - Each base has a basic VP level for Allied ownership and one for Japanese
ownership. The final victory point value that is awarded to the controlling player at the end of
the game is figured by the following formula:

» Basic VP# x [ ( current size of port ) + ( current size of airfield x 2) ]
The basic VP and final VP numbers for each side are displayed for each base when the mouse
cursor is placed over a base (the basic VP number value is in parenthesis).

This full amount of the final VP value is only scored at the end of the game if the base has
supplies at least equal to its needed supplies. If supplies are lower than the required amount,
the VP’s scored will be less than this maximum, (the lower the supplies the lower the scored
VP’s). Bases with 0 supplies would score 25% of the full final points.

Example: Rabaul has a Basic Japanese VP level of 3. Assuming the size of the airfield is 8, and
the size of the port is 7, the Final VP level for Japanese ownership of Rabaul is 3 x [ (7) + (8 x
2) ] or 69. As long as Rabaul had more than its supplies needed, the Japanese player would
score 69. If Rabaul’s supplies were only equal to 30% of its needs, the Japanese player would
score only 33 VP’s.

Industry damage – Two VPs per point damaged, 20 VPs per point destroyed (an item destroyed
when damaged will yield 18 more VPs). Industry can only be destroyed by firestorms and
A-bombs, but can be damaged by any type of attack (including firestorms and A-bombs). VPs
scored by damaging industry is cumulative; if an industry hex is bombed, damaged, repaired,
then bombed again, the player keeps earning VPs as long as the industry hex keeps generating
value by repairing itself.

This is true for all industry types including manpower.

Points will only be scored by the Allies for bombing industry in mainland Japan, and by the
Japanese for bombing industry in North America, Australia, and/or Hawaii.

Been a looong time since I read that section. This bit surprised me:

For all ships, additional value is calculated based on the troop, cargo, and liquid carrying
capacity of the ship. A big transport or tanker are very valuable.

The above doesn't specify the formula for that. Anyone know if it has come out or been explained?

[Chickenboy]

Even though the Japanese considered the Betty a "heavy bomber", it didn't compare to Allied heavy bombers. Still, for the sake of VPs, are we correct in assuming that "heavy bomber" = Allied 4EB? What about Mavis or Emily flying boats with four engines? I dunno. [&:]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Even though the Japanese considered the Betty a "heavy bomber", it didn't compare to Allied heavy bombers. Still, for the sake of VPs, are we correct in assuming that "heavy bomber" = Allied 4EB? What about Mavis or Emily flying boats with four engines? I dunno. [&:]

Looking at the air group display in-game, there are filters across the top. I assume that anything displayed when the "HB" filter is the only one selected. IIRC the USN 4E flying boats do not appear with that filter.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Even though the Japanese considered the Betty a "heavy bomber", it didn't compare to Allied heavy bombers. Still, for the sake of VPs, are we correct in assuming that "heavy bomber" = Allied 4EB? What about Mavis or Emily flying boats with four engines? I dunno. [&:]

Looking at the air group display in-game, there are filters across the top. I assume that anything displayed when the "HB" filter is the only one selected. IIRC the USN 4E flying boats do not appear with that filter.

Just a guess, but I always assumed the VP distinction was crew count. Not engines or man-hours or materials in construction.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Even though the Japanese considered the Betty a "heavy bomber", it didn't compare to Allied heavy bombers. Still, for the sake of VPs, are we correct in assuming that "heavy bomber" = Allied 4EB? What about Mavis or Emily flying boats with four engines? I dunno. [&:]

Looking at the air group display in-game, there are filters across the top. I assume that anything displayed when the "HB" filter is the only one selected. IIRC the USN 4E flying boats do not appear with that filter.

Just a guess, but I always assumed the VP distinction was crew count. Not engines or man-hours or materials in construction.

AFAIK there is no accounting for crew count in the game. But there is a data item for what type a plane is, (there has to be) because that's what they need to use for 1) the display I mentioned and 2) the various functions that need to know the profile of the plane, like missions (what missions can be flown using what profile at what altitude, etc.).

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs


Looking at the air group display in-game, there are filters across the top. I assume that anything displayed when the "HB" filter is the only one selected. IIRC the USN 4E flying boats do not appear with that filter.

Just a guess, but I always assumed the VP distinction was crew count. Not engines or man-hours or materials in construction.

AFAIK there is no accounting for crew count in the game. But there is a data item for what type a plane is, (there has to be) because that's what they need to use for 1) the display I mentioned and 2) the various functions that need to know the profile of the plane, like missions (what missions can be flown using what profile at what altitude, etc.).

There's no accounting for crew in the game, but there could be in GG's mind when the EXE was coded to give 4E bombers alone more VPs. And then translated into the HB DB code. That's what I meant. It was a human decision to not make 4E the break-point and then apply the VP hit to patrol planes. HB was made the break point.

[witpqs]

Maybe that was his reasoning. If so, he missed the crews on large flying-boat patrol planes.

[Numdydar]

Yes but those were no were near as costly as B17s and the like or as time consuming to make. Which is why the 4e Japanese planes are not HBs as well.

[czert2]

cost - money and time - well anyone have idea how much money/time b-17, catalina, mavis, emily..etc costed ?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Maybe that was his reasoning. If so, he missed the crews on large flying-boat patrol planes.

I didn't think the crews were that large; maybe 4-5. I Wikied the Mavis (one model) and the Coronodo and was surprised to learn that Mavis type was a crew of 9 and the Coronado was 7-10.

Not consistently the B-17s ten, but a very large crew.

[crsutton]

Well, with a full campaign under my belt, I would say that it is a bit too easy for the Allies to amass VP. It would be a good idea to change it to VP per engine. Probably easily done. Of course, that then makes a B17 about as expensive as a old DD so perhaps not...

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Apologies for this partial hijack...

17.0 VICTORY CONDITIONS

Throughout the game, both sides are scoring victory
points (VPs). VPs are gained and lost as units are
destroyed. At the end of the game, these points are
totaled along with the points for bases controlled by
either side, and these points are then compared to
determine which side has won. Points are awarded
in the following ways:

Aircraft Destroyed (Japanese or Allied):
» 1 VP per plane destroyed
» 2 VP per Heavy Bomber destroyed

Ground Units Destroyed:
» Allied ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or guns):
» Philippine and Chinese: 1 VP for every 12 items destroyed
» Soviet: 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed
» All Other Allied: 1 VP for every 3 items destroyed
» Japanese ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or
guns): 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed

Ships Sunk - The VPs for sinking a ship is based on the durability and capacity of the ship:
» For CV and CVL ships, add 3 times the A/C capacity to the durability.
» For CVE ships, add 2 times the A/C capacity to the durability.
» For CS ships, add the A/C capacity to the durability.

For all ships, additional value is calculated based on the troop, cargo, and liquid carrying
capacity of the ship. A big transport or tanker are very valuable.

If a ship is scuttled, it will score 10% less than its standard VP’s.

Ships that are destroyed while under construction will score one half of the standard VPs.

Ships that are lost to marine casualties and other non-combat action (grounding, collision, etc)
score 75% of the standard VP

The minimum Victory Point value of any ship is 1.

Ship Damaged - In certain scenarios VP’s are awarded for ships that have system damage
at the end of the game but are not sunk. The points awarded are equal to the normal VPs for
sinking x 1/2 x system damage / 100). In scenarios allowing points for ship damage, ships may
not be sent home to Japan, Pearl Harbor, or any other off map location. In these scenarios the
Intel screen will list the total number of ships on each side that are damaged and the victory
points earned for these ships. A display showing data on ships sunk will appear at the end of a
scenario, and points scored from damaged ships is located in the player’s Intel screen.

Control of Base - Each base has a basic VP level for Allied ownership and one for Japanese
ownership. The final victory point value that is awarded to the controlling player at the end of
the game is figured by the following formula:

» Basic VP# x [ ( current size of port ) + ( current size of airfield x 2) ]
The basic VP and final VP numbers for each side are displayed for each base when the mouse
cursor is placed over a base (the basic VP number value is in parenthesis).

This full amount of the final VP value is only scored at the end of the game if the base has
supplies at least equal to its needed supplies. If supplies are lower than the required amount,
the VP’s scored will be less than this maximum, (the lower the supplies the lower the scored
VP’s). Bases with 0 supplies would score 25% of the full final points.

Example: Rabaul has a Basic Japanese VP level of 3. Assuming the size of the airfield is 8, and
the size of the port is 7, the Final VP level for Japanese ownership of Rabaul is 3 x [ (7) + (8 x
2) ] or 69. As long as Rabaul had more than its supplies needed, the Japanese player would
score 69. If Rabaul’s supplies were only equal to 30% of its needs, the Japanese player would
score only 33 VP’s.

Industry damage – Two VPs per point damaged, 20 VPs per point destroyed (an item destroyed
when damaged will yield 18 more VPs). Industry can only be destroyed by firestorms and
A-bombs, but can be damaged by any type of attack (including firestorms and A-bombs). VPs
scored by damaging industry is cumulative; if an industry hex is bombed, damaged, repaired,
then bombed again, the player keeps earning VPs as long as the industry hex keeps generating
value by repairing itself.

This is true for all industry types including manpower.

Points will only be scored by the Allies for bombing industry in mainland Japan, and by the
Japanese for bombing industry in North America, Australia, and/or Hawaii.

Been a looong time since I read that section. This bit surprised me:

For all ships, additional value is calculated based on the troop, cargo, and liquid carrying
capacity of the ship. A big transport or tanker are very valuable.

The above doesn't specify the formula for that. Anyone know if it has come out or been explained?

Wow! I've been playing for just about a full decade, and was operating under the assumption "1 plane, 1 VP" the whole time?!

While I'm at it, maybe you guys can answer a few other questions.

Has Columbus set sail for the East Indies yet? Has Australopithecus spread to S. Africa yet?

[witpqs]

It's a little known fact that Australopithecus set the sails for Columbus. He was short of crew.

[Chickenboy]

Australopithecus was the first to land on Argleton too! True fact, dat.

[alanschu]

Shouldn't Ben Affleck be involved, somehow?

[spence]

Allied 4E bomber's now give the Japanese Player twice as many points as Japanese heavy bombers.
Fine.

So why does anyone feel an obligation to listen to the JFBs specifying so many "house rules" about their employment?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: spence

Allied 4E bomber's now give the Japanese Player twice as many points as Japanese heavy bombers.
Fine.

So why does anyone feel an obligation to listen to the JFBs specifying so many "house rules" about their employment?

Because opinions vary. Mine is that none of those 4EB house rules is needed or helpful to a good game. Others disagree.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: spence

Allied 4E bomber's now give the Japanese Player twice as many points as Japanese heavy bombers.
Fine.

So why does anyone feel an obligation to listen to the JFBs specifying so many "house rules" about their employment?

The Japanese don't have any heavy bombers. Even their medium bombers couldn't hold a candle to the allied medium bombers. That's probably why they're not counted as 2 VPs.