Why no Overrun option

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ironduke1955
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Why no Overrun option

Post by ironduke1955 »

A fairly staple reality in Wargames as it is in the real world, Are overrun's. Where the attacking force has such overwhelming strength and the defensive strength so feeble. That the defender does not constitute a obstacle to the attacker. And ceases to exist when the larger unit attacks or moves into the hex. With no movement or any other cost to the attacker.

"The odds necessary for an overrun vary for terrain types. The combat display indicates at what point an overrun is possible or assured. The advantage of overruns is that they don't count as actions, so groups can conduct a series of overrun attacks until they can no longer move. Artillery units are especially susceptible to being overrun.'

This is a extract from a review of Korsun Pocket but I have played countless games where overrun was just one of the rules you had to have to prevent, tiny pockets of every kind unit of type being used as a obstacle to absorb Action Points and slow down advances and tip the balance of the game in favor of the defender.
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Vic
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by Vic »

I double dare you to actually try and attack a remnant or token force out in the open with a big force. I am sure combat will take less AP than moving into an empty hex would have taken.

Or in other words overrun attacks are modeled in the ATG combat algorithms. Not explicitly, but to the same effect. Since every combat round takes 10AP and eventually the unit either pays the combat AP cost or the movement AP cost to get into the hex, whichever is higher. Quick combats thus do not cost any more AP than just moving in unopposed.

However sometimes token forces can do better than expected: for example when well entrenched or in mountains or cities.

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ironduke1955
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by ironduke1955 »

Thanks for the reply Vic.

Supposing a unit of 100 stacking points attacks a unit of 10 stacking points odds of 10 to 1 and in clear terrain the chances of a quick victory are slim if all things are equal in readiness and experience. So overwhelming force is not a guarantee of success and avoiding a AP penalty. My experience is that there are very seldom 1st round victories even at overwhelming odds. Also the practice of placing 1 SP units in PBEM so prevalent there must be a advantage to this tactic otherwise why do players do it.
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Twotribes
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by Twotribes »

If at all possible it is best to shell then bomb a defense stack before attacking, lowering their readiness. I have found even small units with 100 percent readiness are very good against Infantry attacks even overwhelming odds. And Staff are like supermen.
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ironduke1955
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by ironduke1955 »

Thanks Twotribes

That would work to shell or bomb this tiny stack to reduce readiness then attack and avoid a hit to the large units AP. My problem with that solution is you may have better things to do with your Air or Artillery units, that the target hiding behind the one stacking point you are forced to attack, is where you should be using these air or artillery units. Its just my preference but instant elimination with no calculation required would be a better option. I guess it would demonstrate the price that a tiny and isolated force would suffer if the commander was foolish enough to leave them to face overwhelming odds.
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by Twotribes »

It is also my experience that if you hit that small stack of Infantry with an armor attack they fold quickly unless they also have armor, even At guns don't help a little stack.
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ironduke1955
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by ironduke1955 »

Just had a infantry unit 19 inf 1 HMG defeated by 1 inf in clear/fields must be one of those freak combat results lol.
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by Vic »

One of the things thats the problem with infantry only attacks when you want to achieve an overrun result (spent less AP or equal on combat as a move into an unopposed hex would take) is that infantry suffers 66% penalty in 1st round of attack and 33% in 2nd round. Furthermore infantry is just very bad in attack.

To give a calculation example without the first round penalties and without any entrenchment for the defending infantry unit:
Attacking Infantry Pow 13 vs defending inf HP 100 = 13% chance to score a hit (subsequently 50% chance on retreat or kill) => 6% chance to force the unit of hex.
However you can only attack 5 times like this before further penalties due to max individual attacks suffered (its hard to focus your whole army on one guy) set in and reduce the chance of a hit even further. There is a limit to this further reduction at 66% penalty but that means that the last guys of your army attack only with a 2% chance to achieve the wanted result.

So yeah if you only have like 30AP left in a unit even a single infantry might hold against 20. Not sure what the odds are, but its not impossible. However if you have had 60AP left it should have been cleared easily.

If you really want an overrun add some horse or armoured car. They are cheap and suffer no initial penalties in the first rounds of attack.

Last thing: it is actually not a good strategy imho to put 1 infantry units as blockades since the cost of a unit is 1 PP and equals the cost of 5 infantry and they can be broken easily by armour/horse or any additional air/art support.

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ernieschwitz
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by ernieschwitz »

I think alot of mods use a 0 pp cost for each formation, which might be where these tactics stem from anyway...
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ironduke1955
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by ironduke1955 »

I guess you can get variable results from purely infantry versus Infantry results, if 100 infantry form a firing line in cover, against 2000 infantry advancing across open ground, then 2000 infantry can be repelled many such circumstances are documented. After all in the real world with modern rifles 100 men firing from cover can seem like many more. Armored Vehicles however are a different matter entirely, cavalry well I am not a fan of the mounted rifleman against modern rifles, recon and then dismounting to fight would give mounted riflemen the edge over plain infantry. But all of these circumstances require poor command at the Regimental or Battalion level. I am sure if I was the commander of 2000 infantry defeated by 100 then I would consider myself a poor commander indeed. The combat I described earlier has the attacker with 70 or 80 AP I can't recreate the combat as that would require reloading a turn in a ongoing PBEM game.
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RE: Why no Overrun option

Post by Vic »

Well with 80AP thats a bit of a freaky combat result indeed.

You might want to read the combat detail reports next time you get a puzzling result to see what modifiers were in play.

High experience and entrenchment could have played a role.

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