[FIXED B487] [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

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guanotwozero
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:53 am

[FIXED B487] [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by guanotwozero »

Two bugs in one savegame! Though I don't reckon they're related. [;)]

Firstly, I ordered an aircraft to RTB as it was getting low, although bingo hadn't yet triggered. Instead of RTBing, it insists on heading towards a tanker to refuel, even though the home carrier is closer and the tanker is still in transit to its station. It appears the tanker is well out of range. If RTB is instructed, the refuel override kicks in within seconds.

The aircraft in question is EA-18G "Almighty #2", its home carrier is "CVN-78 Ford", and the nearest tanker is KC-135R "Rimshot #1"



Secondly, a ship group has been given a new course but won't change direction, maintaining its previous heading. It's not on offensive or on any obvious action that should prevent this. Indeed, it's en route to run aground! [X(]

The group in question is Zumwalt SAG.


Both bugs exist after restarting and reloading the save.
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AndrewJ
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RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by AndrewJ »

I have also seen this refuelling behaviour in other scenarios (B484, Canary's Cage). Once RTB is triggered aircraft will automatically head for a tanker even if they have sufficient fuel to make it to their home base without refuelling, and even if heading for the tanker would take them further from their base.

I have to turn the Use Refuel option off and unassign and replot the course when this happens.

Would it be possible for the aircraft to make a "Do I have enough fuel to get home?" check before deciding to use the tanker?
mikmykWS
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RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by mikmykWS »

guanotwozero I was able get the Zumwalt group to drop their track by breaking up and dropping all targets of Zumwalt and Farragut. It seems something overrode the group control but not exactly sure why.

Did you order these two ships to individually shoot a SAM at a target?

Thanks!

Mike
mikmykWS
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by mikmykWS »

Ok guys both of these logged as separate issues. If you can let me know on the Zumwalt group. Need to figure out exactly how and if individual orders are trumping group orders.

Thanks

Mike
AndrewJ
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Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:47 pm

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by AndrewJ »

While on the topic of RTB behaviour, sometimes the default RTB behaviour would take aircraft into dangerous situations. In those cases I can plot a series of waypoints around the danger, setting the speed and altitude appropriately to dodge under radar, etc. However, at the end of the path the aircraft will sit there on loiter until their fuel runs down and (hopefully) the Bingo behaviour kicks in to take them back to base.

Would it be possible to have an additional waypoint option that would immediately send the aircraft to RTB when they reach the waypoint?

Image

That way you could be confident that your aircraft would land immediately at the end of a complex escape route, without hoping you remember to go back and RTB them later on.
mikmykWS
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RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by mikmykWS »

Pretty good idea Andy. Request added.

Thanks!

Mike
guanotwozero
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:53 am

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by guanotwozero »

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
guanotwozero I was able get the Zumwalt group to drop their track by breaking up and dropping all targets of Zumwalt and Farragut. It seems something overrode the group control but not exactly sure why.

Did you order these two ships to individually shoot a SAM at a target?

Thanks!

Mike
Hi Mike,

To launch SAMs I normally use group mode, choose manual attack, then select a particular ship from the "Attacking Unit(s)" box. However, I can't remember if I've actually done so here, as I've replayed the scenario several times with different approaches (e.g. using AAMs only), so the best I can say is "probably". I've certainly never broken the group apart, and there are no current targets at time of save. I can replay and see if the course problem begins when I start attacking targets.

It does indeed look like something's overriding the course change; when I set a new course, it's noticeable that at least one of the ships (Sioux City) does change course slightly before going back to the previous one.

Something else that might be relevant: when I initially start the scenario, I add several new sets of RPs for missions. For each, I do so by a) deselecting all RPs, b) adding a new set and c) making it relative (fixed) to the TF.

However, each time I instruct a set to be relative, a dialog box pops up warning me that "Some of the highlighted reference points are locked and could not be set relative to the unit". There are indeed locked RPs in the scenario, but they should have been deselected at this point. The new RPs are marked as relative and do seem to work properly, though.

Could it be that the Deselect command doesn't fully handle the locked RPs, although their visual appearance is changed, and so somehow includes them in the selected relative set? If so, then maybe any course change is causing the bizlogic to struggle, as it tries to deal with such locked RPs inadvertantly made relative to the TF. I've not noticed either the warning dialog box or course change issue in any other scenario. Maybe breaking the group apart unhooks the troublesome relative RPs, so allowing course-setting to behave normally. Well, just an idea.



As for Refuel, there is indeed a workaround by turning it off in the Doctrine settings, though ideally it would be good to avoid such micromanagement.

As well as a distance check, it might be an idea to add ground/carrier refuelling which would ensure heading to the nearest fuel stop anyway, but I'll punt that in a suggestions thread.


I have another save here which shows strange refuelling behaviour, in case it's anyway related;

If I order Viper #2 (nearest the tanker, Shell #1) to refuel, it sets off to do so, showing status "HeadingToRefuelPoint(ManouveringToRefuel)". However, at about 3.5 miles from the tanker it seems to abandon the attempt, with status becoming "OnSupportMission(ManouveringToRefuel) i.e. it returns to its support mission.

I can get around that by setting a course and then ordering a refuel while on that course. Refuelling works fine.

From the same save position, if I order Viper #6 to refuel, it just ignores me completely! Again, setting a course gets around that. Whatever's overriding the refuel task isn't clear to me here. Mission trumps refuel trumps RTB trumps mission...[:)]
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mikmykWS
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RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by mikmykWS »

Ok thanks. We'll take a look to see what happened but for now using the procedure above should get rid of the issue.

As far as the reference points make sure they're all unlocked.

Thanks!

Mike
guanotwozero
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:53 am

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by guanotwozero »

Quick update: I've replayed this in B486 to about the same stage, and not encountered the same course problem. I've tried launching SAMs & TLAMs and bombarding the shore, and all's fine. I'll keep on playing to see if it stays away.

The "locked RP" warning is still there, but doesn't seem to affect gameplay.

I did get a repeatable RTB problem, but I'll post that separately to avoid this thread becoming any more unwieldy.
guanotwozero
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Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:53 am

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by guanotwozero »

Another update:

I had this course bug occur again only once, but didn't have any recent saves to catch the cause. For this reason I've requested sequenced autosaves.

The recent prior event was that the group was attacked by many SSMs, and I manually fired SAMs from the ships to kill them. I did so by selecting the group, manual attack on a specific target, then choosing the firing ship in the manual attack dialog. I can't think of anything else of note.

EDIT ===

Now I remember, I tried to fix the problem by breaking the group apart. This worked for all ships except Zumwalt, the former group leader, which refused to change course. One other prior event that might be relevant; a hostile sub appeared and the group went defensive until it was destroyed.

I tried to play forward from an earlier save to find the point where the problem begins, but it didn't reoccur.
guanotwozero
Posts: 651
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:53 am

RE: [B484] Double trouble: Unwise Refuel overrides RTB + Surface group won't change course

Post by guanotwozero »

Good stuff, thanks guys! [8D]
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