Italy/CW DoW

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Sabre21
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Italy/CW DoW

Post by Sabre21 »

I would like to get folk's opinion on when is the most opportune time for the CW or Italy to declare war on one another in the Global scenario.

It seems like it is a race to build up Egypt/Libya so neither side would want to do it too early.

I tend to reinforce the CW fleet with most of the units from the Indian Ocean. I also tend to use the Queens transport to ship the 7 str infantry from England to Egypt then reorganize it and send it either to S. Africa, India, or Canada to pick up a unit and return it to Egypt. Within a few turns I have 5 or 6 units there not including any territorials that may have started there along with an air unit or two.

As for the Italians, I get a couple units down there during the first turn. Turn 2 I try and ship a couple motorsed to Libya and once France falls I start getting a German Hq and several armor/mech units prepped to ship off too. I also send several Italian air units.

The problem I run into with the Axis is cracking the Qattara defenses (even with a chit), and keeping Axis units in supply.
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markb50k
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by markb50k »

In my current game, it is May/June 40 and I still haven't DOW. However, Italy has DOW'd France so they could up their action limits in preparation for an attack on Greece.

The CW has, in the meantime, had plenty of time to put a very nice force of 6-8 corps in Egypt, while the Italians have 5 corps on the other side of the border.

If Egypt is the goal, only bad play from the CW would allow it (i.e. leaving ports unprotected) even with an early DOW by Italy, in my opinion.
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warspite1
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

The problem I run into with the Axis is cracking the Qattara defenses (even with a chit), and keeping Axis units in supply.
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warspite1
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would like to get folk's opinion on when is the most opportune time for the CW or Italy to declare war on one another in the Global scenario.

It seems like it is a race to build up Egypt/Libya so neither side would want to do it too early.

I tend to reinforce the CW fleet with most of the units from the Indian Ocean. I also tend to use the Queens transport to ship the 7 str infantry from England to Egypt then reorganize it and send it either to S. Africa, India, or Canada to pick up a unit and return it to Egypt. Within a few turns I have 5 or 6 units there not including any territorials that may have started there along with an air unit or two.

As for the Italians, I get a couple units down there during the first turn. Turn 2 I try and ship a couple motorsed to Libya and once France falls I start getting a German Hq and several armor/mech units prepped to ship off too. I also send several Italian air units.

The problem I run into with the Axis is cracking the Qattara defenses (even with a chit), and keeping Axis units in supply.
warspite1

Personally I would always wait and see how things are going for the Germans in Poland and France. This is because I can't see how the Italians can do much (if anything) without German assistance.
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Majorball68
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Majorball68 »

Unless the CW leave Malta, Gilbratar undefended at the start Italy cannot do a lot. If your not using the rule that requires a Convoy or transport for supply in a sea zone then it is possible to put some areas out of supply including Gilbratar(requires an Italian surface fleet to pass thru Gilbratar on the 1st Axis impulse) and invading a 0 defense notional. I look for opportunities to take the French North Africa colonies. Only some lucky low odds attacks can capture Alexandria and that is helped if the CW don't reinforce ASAP. What I am finding is the Axis lack some long range fighters early in the game so even if they build lots of Naval Aircraft even a 3 strength CV fighter can take them down unless they get lucking with the search die rolls. Its risky to put your Naval bombers in any other box except the 2 box. Then you are most likely fighting CV aircraft from the 4 box.
Why do people insist on doing what the Axis did in world War 2, they lost remember?

Go to Africa in force or not at all!
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Sabre21 »

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

Unless the CW leave Malta, Gilbratar undefended at the start Italy cannot do a lot. If your not using the rule that requires a Convoy or transport for supply in a sea zone then it is possible to put some areas out of supply including Gilbratar(requires an Italian surface fleet to pass thru Gilbratar on the 1st Axis impulse) and invading a 0 defense notional. I look for opportunities to take the French North Africa colonies. Only some lucky low odds attacks can capture Alexandria and that is helped if the CW don't reinforce ASAP. What I am finding is the Axis lack some long range fighters early in the game so even if they build lots of Naval Aircraft even a 3 strength CV fighter can take them down unless they get lucking with the search die rolls. Its risky to put your Naval bombers in any other box except the 2 box. Then you are most likely fighting CV aircraft from the 4 box.
Why do people insist on doing what the Axis did in world War 2, they lost remember?

Go to Africa in force or not at all!

Why naval bombers in the 2 box and not the 4 box or the 0 box?
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Majorball68
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Majorball68 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

Unless the CW leave Malta, Gilbratar undefended at the start Italy cannot do a lot. If your not using the rule that requires a Convoy or transport for supply in a sea zone then it is possible to put some areas out of supply including Gilbratar(requires an Italian surface fleet to pass thru Gilbratar on the 1st Axis impulse) and invading a 0 defense notional. I look for opportunities to take the French North Africa colonies. Only some lucky low odds attacks can capture Alexandria and that is helped if the CW don't reinforce ASAP. What I am finding is the Axis lack some long range fighters early in the game so even if they build lots of Naval Aircraft even a 3 strength CV fighter can take them down unless they get lucking with the search die rolls. Its risky to put your Naval bombers in any other box except the 2 box. Then you are most likely fighting CV aircraft from the 4 box.
Why do people insist on doing what the Axis did in world War 2, they lost remember?

Go to Africa in force or not at all!

Why naval bombers in the 2 box and not the 4 box or the 0 box?
Ever run into a few CW CV 3 strength Gladiators in a Naval air battle especially in 1939 and early 1940? They can make mincemeat of Axis Naval bombers with no fighter escorts as their air to air rating is 0 or 1 early. I mush prefer to have them in the 2 box with fighter support then being caught in the number 4 box with no fighter support. The Axis lose a couple of Naval bombers early it is very hard for them in the med. If the search roll does not go your way it can be a very painful experience.
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peskpesk
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by peskpesk »

Axis has some 4+ range FTR, they can reach the 2 box and escort the axis NAV. This probably the best way for the Italians to win the battle for the Med.
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Majorball68
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Majorball68 »

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Axis has some 4+ range FTR, they can reach the 2 box and escort the axis NAV. This probably the best way for the Italians to win the battle for the Med.

And the reason I like to keep the naval bombers in the 2 box with them[:)]
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Sabre21
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Sabre21 »

Ok..I understand now that it is due to where the escorts fit in more so than the nav unit. Just to make sure they are in the same box.
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Majorball68
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Majorball68 »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Ok..I understand now that it is due to where the escorts fit in more so than the nav unit. Just to make sure they are in the same box.

Yes exactly, I know you have more chance of spotting from the 4 box however you can only include units from boxes relative to your search roll. So if you do happen to roll a 5 for a successful search than you can only use your units in the 4 box, most likely Navs. True you can choose what boxes you want to fight but a smart player will make sure he doesnt have any boxes which you can hit without being hit yourself. If however the apposition roll a low search number like a 1 or 2 than you may find them deciding to take out your NAV bombers in the 4 box with their fighters! Depending on their search roll if you dont have at least 4 surprise points you wont be able to avoid combat which could end up nasty. Quite often I will have a single scout Crusier in the the 4 box to increase the chances of getting successful search rolls and gaining enough surprise points to avoid a battle altogether.
IKerensky
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by IKerensky »

Usually my Italy DOW early... Too early ? But that is to the benefit of land leasing ressouce with Germany. I dont play with division so the AMPH needed to invade Malta need to get started very soon.
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by brian brian »

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would like to get folk's opinion on when is the most opportune time for the CW or Italy to declare war on one another in the Global scenario.

From a US Entry point of view - either on Sep/Oct 39, or 1940. Nov/Dec 39 would not be a wise turn to DOW anything generally. Then in 1940, early in the year for the Axis, to get the war on, and later in the year for the Allies, if they want to get prepared and carry out some operation benefitting from the Surprise rules while the Italians are trying a Sitzkrieg-lite in the Mediterranean.
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Ur_Vile_WEdge »

I usually have the Italians DoW on the first turn for the simple reason that you need the Germans lending resources and/or build points to make anything of the Italian capabilities. I'll often attack, even if I don't have that much damage I can do, and try to run a mostly defensive show until the summer of 40 or so when I have more navs around.

Plus, Egypt starts really, really undergarrisoned. Sometimes you get a careless CW player who lets me hop into Damietta unopposed, and it's quite hard to stop me from jumping into Haifa, although that's a longer path to threaten the Canal. (Staying in supply afterwards is a pain though)

Also, a lot of the time, the French will pull their forces out of North Africa pretty early, bring them to hold off the Germans. You have a 66% chance (I think, I'm not looking it up at the moment) of getting that 1-4 terr, who while useless in a scrap, can run up the coastline and pick up unprotected colonies. Tunis is important to grab, and Algiers even more so. Getting more of a chance to run down the western med and steal unprotected things is nice.
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Klydon
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Klydon »

In my latest games, I have been having Italy declare war on France before the end of 1939 (usually Nov-Dec) so I can choose more in terms of actions and get more done along with tying down as many French units as possible in mainland France while advancing into Tunisia and possibly Algiers. (The French counter for this is not to bring the unit from Algiers home, in which case, the Italians have to bring a lot to get the job done). Also, (and more importantly) this allows the Germans to feed extra resources and potentially some build points into the Italian economy to get them going on building mostly the air they will need to contest CW control of the Med. In part by not having Italy declare war on the CW, I save on US entry. US entry can be an issue for the Allies depending on how well the rolls went when Russia occupies their side of the line and also if they try to grab territory from Rumania early and also march into the Baltic states. It may be that the CW simply can't take the chance on declaring war on Italy and putting heavy pressure on them in the Med.

My usual action for the CW is along the lines of Sabre in that the Queens yanks a infantry unit out of the UK and heads for the desert. I usually have two units in Gibraltar from start up and also try to get something into Malta in 1939. However, note that this is a lot of ground units and doing much more means the CW is likely not doing their part in France. Just about no matter what, the Italians are going to have an early advantage in the desert to a point, but the CW can usually get enough there that unless the Italians are really willing to undergo some serious low odds risks, it will make it tough for the Italians to potentially make headway.

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celebrindal
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by celebrindal »

I'm trying a gambit of keeping the italians out until Russia.. depends on how the CW player is feeling tho.. That being said it's J/A and the americans only just finally were able to pick sending resources to china.. So I doubt he's going to do anything to jepordize his USE.
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Ur_Vile_WEdge »

Big risk you're running with that is the CW and French can kind of force you to fight by pumping a lot of resources through the Med to France. Making them tougher to bull over can wreck your game.
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celebrindal
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by celebrindal »

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Big risk you're running with that is the CW and French can kind of force you to fight by pumping a lot of resources through the Med to France. Making them tougher to bull over can wreck your game.

Am noticing lots of CW resources, tho almost none are going through the med.. and it's M/J well techinally staring J/A40 and France is dead.. They would have died in M/J but my opponent ended the dang turn on a 1!!! But all in all the only loss the Germans took was a suicide attack by the maginot forces on a mech that they got and the offensive I used to break the line at the begining of the turn.

The bigger issues is Italy not having any dang resources to build.. but i'm hoping to rectify that with taking yugo and possibly Greece.
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Majorball68
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by Majorball68 »

I am finding early DOW to be more of a pain then a later DOW. DOW for hindering convoys is not worth the cost in my opinion. The CW and French can get ample resources the long way. I don't even set up convoys in the Med, what is the point of giving the Italians a free shot at them. Having the threat of a DOW is more of a weapon I think. What can you really do in the Med early as the Italians? You more or less give the French fleet something to beat up on, its hard to keep your African units in supply and you let the CW plan strategy because they send units right away. If Germany does lend Build points it is at the expense of its own Build points. Sending resources is not very efficient with .5 & .75 Production multiplier. Saying that it is always good to look for an opportunity to DOW should the Allies give you one but DOW on the 3rd impulse by default leads to other issues. Only against a dummy will it be effective. The cost in blood and units to keep the med supplied far out ways the cost of staying neutral.
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RE: Italy/CW DoW

Post by brian brian »

Yes, the Italians have an uphill go of it in 1939. But what the Axis gets out of that decision is pressure on the CW. Pressure on your enemy helps keep your enemy from doing other things that they would rather be doing. The strategic initiative is worth a lot.
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