I'm making a scenario involving a few LCS class ships and I was wondering if there was a resource that I could use to get some speculative information on it's mission modules? Mostly I'm concerned with approximating their performance several years into the future when they've completed development. Or even if someone knowledgeable about the subject could give me their informed opinion of what might happen that would work.
Also I don't know if this is a DB error or not, but when I attempt to add either of the AN/WLD-1 mine-hunting Sonars in the database (ID#4811 and 4479) they come with other sensors that's don't seem to make sense. One gets a two sets of TV and IR Gun directors and laser range finder, the other one gets a Phalanx director and the radar from a M163 VADS.
A few LCS questions.
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: A few LCS questions.
Thanks, that was exactly what I needed!
RE: A few LCS questions.
I'm interested in this topic as well, poaw.
Playing the South China Sea scenario made me curious, so I've been looking around.
Here's a first pass on the mission modules, based on current information. I've tried to stick to published facts as much as possible. I didn't keep track of the URLs, alas, but googling the items should result in the same articles.
LCS Unmanned Surface Vehicles
The LCS will carry a couple of Fleet-class unmanned surface vehicles (USVs), which in game terms are very similar to 11m RHBs. So I use the civilian 11m RHB to stand in for them. Like the LCS itself, they are modular and can be fitted with mission-specific packages.
In game terms, all Fleet Class USVs come standard with:
- Generic TV camera
- Generic LLTV
- Generic navigation radar
- They do NOT have the mk1 eyeball sensor, so you'll need to remove that
ASW Mission Module
Add:
1x UMS 4229 CAPTAS Mk2(V)1 VDS variable-depth sonar to complement the AN/SQR 20
2x MH60R
1x Fire Scout
1x2 AN/SLQ-25A nixie It's actually a "new decoy", but close enough
Mine Countermeasures Module
Add:
1x AQS-20A sonar (on the ship)
2xMH60S
- 1x *AES-1 Airborne Laser Mine Detection System -and-
- ?x *An/ASQ-235 Airborne Mine Neutralization System
* Not yet modeled in the game
1x AN/WLD 1(v)1 RMS remote minehunting system listed as a sub in the DB
2x Fleet class USV, with
- 1x Generic Magnetic & Acoustic Mine Sweep -or-
- 1x Generic ROV mine hunting sonar -or-
- 1x Seafox I [Killer Vehicle] ROV listed as a weapon in the DB
ASuW Mission Module
Add:
2x 30mm Mk 46 Mod 2 mounts see the San Antonio class for details
1x LCS ASuW Mission Module (Griffin Blk IIB) listed as a mount in the DB
1x MH60R
2x Fire Scout
2x Fleet class USV, with
- 1x 7.62 mg
- 1x Generic FLIR 3rd gen Target Tracking and ID
- 1x Generic Laser Designator (Surface Only)
* This loadout for the USVs is speculative, but conservative.
Notes:
I wouldn't be surprised if nixie is fitted as standard LCS equipment instead of just for the ASW mission.
A plan to tow AN/AQS 20 on the helos was cancelled due to weight. But the entry's still in the DB.
The Navy originally planned to use the mine-hunting RMV to hunt for subs too, but changed its mind. Hence the VDS sonar in the ASW fit.
There are future plans to outfit Fleet-class USVs with ESM and ECM for "jamming support", but I have no details.
The ASW module info I've seen says there are future plans to oufit the USVs with some sort of dipping sonar for sub hunting, but again I have no details.
There's talk the Navy may go with "Spike" missiles instead of Griffin, but it's not clear if they mean the Israeli Spike NLOS (which is very similar to the now-cancelled Army NLOS missile they were going to use) or something else. Apparently the Navy is working on a very small missile also called "Spike", but it sounds even less capable than the Griffin.
Thoughts, anyone? What's missing? I'd like to flesh this out if possible.
Playing the South China Sea scenario made me curious, so I've been looking around.
Here's a first pass on the mission modules, based on current information. I've tried to stick to published facts as much as possible. I didn't keep track of the URLs, alas, but googling the items should result in the same articles.
LCS Unmanned Surface Vehicles
The LCS will carry a couple of Fleet-class unmanned surface vehicles (USVs), which in game terms are very similar to 11m RHBs. So I use the civilian 11m RHB to stand in for them. Like the LCS itself, they are modular and can be fitted with mission-specific packages.
In game terms, all Fleet Class USVs come standard with:
- Generic TV camera
- Generic LLTV
- Generic navigation radar
- They do NOT have the mk1 eyeball sensor, so you'll need to remove that
ASW Mission Module
Add:
1x UMS 4229 CAPTAS Mk2(V)1 VDS variable-depth sonar to complement the AN/SQR 20
2x MH60R
1x Fire Scout
1x2 AN/SLQ-25A nixie It's actually a "new decoy", but close enough
Mine Countermeasures Module
Add:
1x AQS-20A sonar (on the ship)
2xMH60S
- 1x *AES-1 Airborne Laser Mine Detection System -and-
- ?x *An/ASQ-235 Airborne Mine Neutralization System
* Not yet modeled in the game
1x AN/WLD 1(v)1 RMS remote minehunting system listed as a sub in the DB
2x Fleet class USV, with
- 1x Generic Magnetic & Acoustic Mine Sweep -or-
- 1x Generic ROV mine hunting sonar -or-
- 1x Seafox I [Killer Vehicle] ROV listed as a weapon in the DB
ASuW Mission Module
Add:
2x 30mm Mk 46 Mod 2 mounts see the San Antonio class for details
1x LCS ASuW Mission Module (Griffin Blk IIB) listed as a mount in the DB
1x MH60R
2x Fire Scout
2x Fleet class USV, with
- 1x 7.62 mg
- 1x Generic FLIR 3rd gen Target Tracking and ID
- 1x Generic Laser Designator (Surface Only)
* This loadout for the USVs is speculative, but conservative.
Notes:
I wouldn't be surprised if nixie is fitted as standard LCS equipment instead of just for the ASW mission.
A plan to tow AN/AQS 20 on the helos was cancelled due to weight. But the entry's still in the DB.
The Navy originally planned to use the mine-hunting RMV to hunt for subs too, but changed its mind. Hence the VDS sonar in the ASW fit.
There are future plans to outfit Fleet-class USVs with ESM and ECM for "jamming support", but I have no details.
The ASW module info I've seen says there are future plans to oufit the USVs with some sort of dipping sonar for sub hunting, but again I have no details.
There's talk the Navy may go with "Spike" missiles instead of Griffin, but it's not clear if they mean the Israeli Spike NLOS (which is very similar to the now-cancelled Army NLOS missile they were going to use) or something else. Apparently the Navy is working on a very small missile also called "Spike", but it sounds even less capable than the Griffin.
Thoughts, anyone? What's missing? I'd like to flesh this out if possible.
RE: A few LCS questions.
Rafael Spike missile might be a good guess since they test fired those from USV´s as reported in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bPnqL3K3H4
and here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224165/Now-drones-seas-U-S-Navy-launches-unmanned-combat-boats-firing-missiles-time.html
But its no more then a guess without hard data.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bPnqL3K3H4
and here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224165/Now-drones-seas-U-S-Navy-launches-unmanned-combat-boats-firing-missiles-time.html
But its no more then a guess without hard data.
Windows 7 64; Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz (8 CPUs), ~2.7GHz; 6144MB RAM; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970;
RE: A few LCS questions.
Interesting, MR_BURNS2, thanks for the links.
Based on the video and the range claimed in the article, those experiments used Spike LR.
Based on the video and the range claimed in the article, those experiments used Spike LR.
RE: A few LCS questions.
They look like Griffin missiles which is the interim choice until a better missile gets developed.
RE: A few LCS questions.
They do look like Griffins, which are the current interim choice for the LCS itself.
But I don't think that necessarily means this Unmanned Surface Vessel experiment used that.
The Daily News article says 6 Spike missiles were launched. "It consists of a dual-pod missile launcher and an Mk-49 mounting system, both made by Rafael and fully automated."
Wikipedia says about the Mk49:
"Mini-Typhoon selected by the US Navy as the Remote Operated Small Arms Mount (ROSAM), designated Mk 49 Mod 1. The combination Spike missile/12.7mm armed variant has been tested on an unmanned vessel"
But I don't think that necessarily means this Unmanned Surface Vessel experiment used that.
The Daily News article says 6 Spike missiles were launched. "It consists of a dual-pod missile launcher and an Mk-49 mounting system, both made by Rafael and fully automated."
Wikipedia says about the Mk49:
"Mini-Typhoon selected by the US Navy as the Remote Operated Small Arms Mount (ROSAM), designated Mk 49 Mod 1. The combination Spike missile/12.7mm armed variant has been tested on an unmanned vessel"
RE: A few LCS questions.
More info on USV dipping sonars:
The navy has looked at the Thales "Compact Flash" as a USV dipping sonar. It's a lightweight version of the AN/AQS-22 ALFS dipping sonar, for USVs.
I can't post URLs yet (newbie), so try googling "thalesgroup compact flash dipping sonar" and choose the top hit.
See also the PDF on that page for more detailed info.
As a speculative addition to the ASW loadout, I'd add two Fleet-class USVs carrying the "Compact Flash" dipping sonar (AN/AQS-22 ALFS in game terms)
I like the combination of USV and dipping sonar - it has a number of nice features:
(1) Active sonar is better than passive in shallow water, and the ALFS is quite powerful (220DB source level and 8 mile range, in the database).
(2) As with the helos, you can active-search without directly endangering the LCS.
(3) The USV has a mission endurance of 24+ hours. A good complement to the faster but short-legged helos. And 4 dipping sonars is definitely better than 2.
(4) If you turn off the engine and stay passive, the USV makes no sound at all (dunno about in-game though). Good for setting up a stealthy "listening post" in restricted waters.
The navy has looked at the Thales "Compact Flash" as a USV dipping sonar. It's a lightweight version of the AN/AQS-22 ALFS dipping sonar, for USVs.
I can't post URLs yet (newbie), so try googling "thalesgroup compact flash dipping sonar" and choose the top hit.
See also the PDF on that page for more detailed info.
As a speculative addition to the ASW loadout, I'd add two Fleet-class USVs carrying the "Compact Flash" dipping sonar (AN/AQS-22 ALFS in game terms)
I like the combination of USV and dipping sonar - it has a number of nice features:
(1) Active sonar is better than passive in shallow water, and the ALFS is quite powerful (220DB source level and 8 mile range, in the database).
(2) As with the helos, you can active-search without directly endangering the LCS.
(3) The USV has a mission endurance of 24+ hours. A good complement to the faster but short-legged helos. And 4 dipping sonars is definitely better than 2.
(4) If you turn off the engine and stay passive, the USV makes no sound at all (dunno about in-game though). Good for setting up a stealthy "listening post" in restricted waters.
RE: A few LCS questions.
The game comes with add weapons and mounts features so feel free to mod what you'd like.
I'll add the fleet USV and the UAV at some point.
Mike
I'll add the fleet USV and the UAV at some point.
Mike
RE: A few LCS questions.
Thanks, mikmyk, much appreciated!
In the meantime, the 11m RHB makes a good stand-in for the USV, and I've fitted them out as described in my posts. Going to modify the ASuW module USVs with the mk 41 mini-typhoon - 1x 50 cal + 2x Spike LR (thanks MR_BURNS2)
One thing the Griffin has going for it, in game terms at least, is that its 13kg warhead does a lot more damage than Spikes. At the moment, mid-sized ground-oriented ATGMs in Command do just 1DP, regardless of warhead weight. I'm thinking maybe that's a ground unit game mechanic to prevent "spill-over" to anything other than the targeted unit (damaging multiple tanks with one TOW would be rather odd). But providing "navalized" versions of those weapons, with DPs that reflect the actual warhead size should be straightforward (uh, as precious developer time permits).
Just read that LCSs also plan to carry a couple of regular US armed 11m RHBs (not surprising). In the ASuW loadout, at least, the navy plans to use them for boarding actions.
The only things missing from the LCS fit now are the AES-1 Airborne Laser Mine Detection System & the AN/ASQ-235 Airborne Mine Neutralization System. Not sure how to represent those, really.
The AES-1 only detects mines in the "upper water column" whatever that corresponds to (periscope depth, maybe?) Can Command actually model a heliborne, depth-limited, laser mine detection sensor? Guess we'll find out
The AN/ASQ 235 might be reasonably simulated by something like an air-launched seafox killer vehicle, but that's a wild guess.
You know, the very fact that we can model ship/air/boat configurations at this grotesque level of detail is a real triumph.
To the Command Dev Team: Fantastic job, guys, and thank you.
In the meantime, the 11m RHB makes a good stand-in for the USV, and I've fitted them out as described in my posts. Going to modify the ASuW module USVs with the mk 41 mini-typhoon - 1x 50 cal + 2x Spike LR (thanks MR_BURNS2)
One thing the Griffin has going for it, in game terms at least, is that its 13kg warhead does a lot more damage than Spikes. At the moment, mid-sized ground-oriented ATGMs in Command do just 1DP, regardless of warhead weight. I'm thinking maybe that's a ground unit game mechanic to prevent "spill-over" to anything other than the targeted unit (damaging multiple tanks with one TOW would be rather odd). But providing "navalized" versions of those weapons, with DPs that reflect the actual warhead size should be straightforward (uh, as precious developer time permits).
Just read that LCSs also plan to carry a couple of regular US armed 11m RHBs (not surprising). In the ASuW loadout, at least, the navy plans to use them for boarding actions.
The only things missing from the LCS fit now are the AES-1 Airborne Laser Mine Detection System & the AN/ASQ-235 Airborne Mine Neutralization System. Not sure how to represent those, really.
The AES-1 only detects mines in the "upper water column" whatever that corresponds to (periscope depth, maybe?) Can Command actually model a heliborne, depth-limited, laser mine detection sensor? Guess we'll find out
The AN/ASQ 235 might be reasonably simulated by something like an air-launched seafox killer vehicle, but that's a wild guess.
You know, the very fact that we can model ship/air/boat configurations at this grotesque level of detail is a real triumph.
To the Command Dev Team: Fantastic job, guys, and thank you.
RE: A few LCS questions.
Before scaling back the scenario I was creating I was looking at speculative ASM technologies to round out the phase 4 surface/ASW warfare modules and settled on the Norwegian NSM and Seehund ROV.
My question is after editing boats how do I get them back onto the LCS?
My question is after editing boats how do I get them back onto the LCS?
RE: A few LCS questions.
AFAIK there's no way to do that directly (but I hope I'm mistaken).
The workaround I've been using is to add the boats to the ship, launch them, edit them, and have them RTB. Then I can play the saved game from that point on. They have to start out in the boat bay because I don't know of any other way to assign boats bases.
But a saved game with time elapsed isn't the same thing as a scenario. Good enough for tinkering, less so for something to be distributed.
Being able to edit docked boats would make a good feature request, I think. The ability to teleport a boat on the map into a ship's boat bay would provide equivalent functionality.
Had never heard of the Seehund ROVs, so thanks for the info. They look like like a very practical and cost-effective way to do minesweeping - maybe a better approach than "fancy and expensive", since mines are involved...
The workaround I've been using is to add the boats to the ship, launch them, edit them, and have them RTB. Then I can play the saved game from that point on. They have to start out in the boat bay because I don't know of any other way to assign boats bases.
But a saved game with time elapsed isn't the same thing as a scenario. Good enough for tinkering, less so for something to be distributed.
Being able to edit docked boats would make a good feature request, I think. The ability to teleport a boat on the map into a ship's boat bay would provide equivalent functionality.
Had never heard of the Seehund ROVs, so thanks for the info. They look like like a very practical and cost-effective way to do minesweeping - maybe a better approach than "fancy and expensive", since mines are involved...